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Author Topic: Liquid explosive from NM?
Einstein
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Icon 5 posted August 10, 2002 05:53 PM      Profile for Einstein   Email Einstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was just thinking that could it be possible to mix 100% NM and 24% ammonia to form liquid explosive? I did a search with words liquid, nitromethane but they didnīt give me anu results [Frown] From those ANNM conversations I have read (if I remember correct) that nitromethanes nitrogroup (NO2-) makes NH4+ ion more sensitive, so could this idea work or is this fucked up from beginning?

Also, is there other liquid explosives containing NM and some other substance (and I donīt wanīt to hear words Hydrazine OR/AND Astrolite!)

[ August 10, 2002, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Einstein ]

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Mr Cool
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Icon 1 posted August 10, 2002 06:03 PM      Profile for Mr Cool   Author's Homepage   Email Mr Cool   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
NM is sensitised by ammonia. This could be achieved by shaking NM with conc. NH3/NH4OH (aq) and seperating the NM and aqueous layer, or (better) by adding anhydrous ammonia, either gas or liquid, to NM.
Of course, NM is by itself a liquid explosive, but it is not very sensitive.
It could probably be mixed with NG/EGDN/MN/EN (etc) to sensitise it, or you can dissolve lots of TNP in the NM, I'm pretty certain there's a patent describing this in the appropriate section in this Forum. TNP solubility in NM is something like 80%!

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DBSP
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Icon 1 posted August 10, 2002 06:04 PM      Profile for DBSP   Author's Homepage   Email DBSP   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Adding ammonia workes, i don't know about any ratios though, I've only heard adding "small ammounts of strong bases or acids". for 100ml of NM i suspect that 5-10ml of ammonia shuld be enaugh but don't take my word for it.

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Helos
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Icon 1 posted August 10, 2002 07:34 PM      Profile for Helos   Author's Homepage   Email Helos   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ammonia sensitizes NM. How much that is good to add depend on how powerfull det you use.

I dont know if it is good to add ammonia gas - water will be needed for the reaction(wery silen, [Smile] ) to take place fast.

(I am to tried to explain any chemistry by now by the way)

I have tested to detonate NM/ammonia25% in filmcanisters.
I had something like 25ml Nm mixed with 2-3ml ammonia.

It is important to shake well.
You dont need to separate but if you want it is easy, just remove the layer in the top of the bottle.
It worked well - most of the times, but I had two failures out of 18.
I used 0,8-1g HMTD in the dets.

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Southern Warrior
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Icon 2 posted August 10, 2002 10:02 PM      Profile for Southern Warrior   Author's Homepage   Email Southern Warrior   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Aniline also sensitizes NM if you can get your hands on it

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andreas
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Icon 1 posted August 11, 2002 06:37 AM      Profile for andreas   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
maybe stupid but I always thought the old pencils that you had to lick to make them write better where analin based. This also gives a nice blue tint to the nm. I use it as a die for absorbtion indication of the nm in ammoiumnitrate.

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a_bab
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Icon 1 posted August 11, 2002 07:41 AM      Profile for a_bab   Email a_bab   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There are lots of so-called "aniline based" pigments. These are made with aniline, but usually are not toxic.

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nbk2000
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Icon 1 posted August 11, 2002 09:11 AM      Profile for nbk2000   Email nbk2000   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Alkyl amines will work to.

This means (most commonly) mono/di/tri[ethyl/methyl]amine. These all have easy synths or are readily available commercially. Check The Hive for info on making them, or perhaps Vogels.

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Chris Shiherlis
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Icon 1 posted August 11, 2002 09:43 AM      Profile for Chris Shiherlis   Email Chris Shiherlis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just a few comments:
NM can be sensitized by almost anything. Acids and alkalines, oxidizers and reducers, and other chemicals can turn the safe NM into a shock sensitive explosive.
Pure liquid NM can also be detonated, e.g. with 100 gram ANNM. Gerald Hurst desribes in some patent the detonation of 1500 gram liquid NM in an open container by 100 gram ANNM in an aluminium tube immersed in it.
And if you mix ammonia (NH3 in water) with NM some of the water (about 10%) dissolves in the NM which might have some disadvantages.
And you should remember that you need at least 5% of the amine to make the NM capsenstive. So if you use household ammonia (5%) you need at least 1 liter of ammonia for every liter NM.
And most NM racefuels have a indicator added to it which makes the fuel turning purple when it gets dangerously sensitive (which is what you need).

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andreas
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Icon 1 posted August 11, 2002 11:44 AM      Profile for andreas   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I once found a video of pure nm being detonated by a pellet off tetryl wich was detonated with an explosive bridgewire. But I don't know where it went. This test was done by a british explosives rechearch lab so it must be accurate. The only thing is that you can't see how big the pellet off tetryl was. But this goes to show that it can be detonated when pure. I'll try and find the vid and post a link.

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mr.evil
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Icon 1 posted August 11, 2002 12:02 PM      Profile for mr.evil   Author's Homepage   Email mr.evil   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
i also saw that movie, it was the guy from the same program where he talks about old warfare, and light some pyrotechnic compositions in front of an old castle. I guess it was a very interesting program! [Smile]

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Einstein
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Icon 6 posted August 11, 2002 12:04 PM      Profile for Einstein   Email Einstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for you all from the information! Iīm very pleased now, so maybe I go to buy ammonia (24%) and use my 250ml of NM soon [Big Grin] The NM what I have, is PURE. It doesnīt have any kind of other chemicals added into it, so it is good. So I would need to mix 250ml of nitromethane and about 12.5ml to 25ml of 24% ammonia (NH4OH) and shake and get the water off?

Does anyone know the reaction equalisation with AM(monia)NM? Itīs something like NH3 + CH3NO2 => ??? but I donīt exactly know what is produced by detonation...

[ August 11, 2002, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Einstein ]

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kingspaz
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Icon 1 posted August 11, 2002 12:23 PM      Profile for kingspaz   Email kingspaz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
what happens is (i think):
NH3 + CH3NO2 <=> NH4CH2NO2
the equilibrium is quite a bit to the left but that doesn't matter because the result will be lots of NH4CH2NO2 forming and decomposing all the time. which means throughout the charge there will allways be some NH4CH2NO2 to make the NM more sensitive to initiation. its kinda like APAN in that an insensitive explosive (NM) is sensitised by a sensitive primary explosive, in this case the NH4CH2NO2.

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andreas
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Icon 1 posted August 11, 2002 02:16 PM      Profile for andreas   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I can be worng but I think this is the same reason why ammoniumnitrate get's sensitised by nm. But I think That nm would perform quite poorly on it's own because it has a ob of -39,3 and is quite a small molecule. You could mix it with an other explosive hi in oxigen. By the way I have a ob calculator not very advanced but comes in quite handy, and saves you a lot of calculating

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rc
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Icon 1 posted August 11, 2002 02:55 PM      Profile for rc   Email rc   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
http://157.98.10.135/NTP_Reports/NTP_Chem_HS_HTML/NTP_Chem7/Radian75-52-5.html

You can find a lot chemicals that sensitise NM in reactivity section. One sentence is extremely interesting- "A mixture with nitric acid is extremely explosive". So why not try nitric acid since its easier to come by than most of the others.

[ August 11, 2002, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: rc ]

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Einstein
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Icon 1 posted August 11, 2002 07:02 PM      Profile for Einstein   Email Einstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the link RC. I thought that you may be interested in this [Wink] I think that 24% ammonia (NH4OH) is more easily came by than nitric acid, because paint shops and Biltema sells it very cheaply (2,90€/liter). Nitric acid (60%) will cost in pharmacy 26,50€/liter. So I think Iīll buy ammonia later next week IF I can get money for it....

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kingspaz
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Icon 1 posted August 12, 2002 05:07 AM      Profile for kingspaz   Email kingspaz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
andreas, you are right in saying that because:
NH4NO3 <=> NH3 + HNO3
although the equilibrium is to the left there is still some NH3 present to react with the NM.

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XP
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Icon 1 posted August 12, 2002 11:45 AM      Profile for XP   Email XP   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There has been research done at our lab on nitromethane detonation. It was found that the critical diameter (in confinement) for the detonation of pure nitromethane is 1.6 cm. However, you can add diethylenetriamine (DETA) to sensitize the NM in various proportions. We found that the maximum sensitivity was with a ratio of around 15% DETA. The critical diameter of that mixture is 0.6 mm (extremely small) !

However, this does not mean you will be able to initiate a detonation in such small diameters. We actually used a setup consisting of a large glass tube (> 1 in) reducing to the small diameter tube. The critical diameter was taken as the smallest diameter at wich the detonation would continue to propagate.

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PrimoPyro
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Icon 1 posted August 14, 2002 11:49 PM      Profile for PrimoPyro   Author's Homepage   Email PrimoPyro   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
NBK200 talked about various short-chain alkylamines sensitising NM. This is true. Methylamine being the best IMO, but also illegal to own or buy/sell, making it unattractive. All three methylamines, mono- di- and tri- are gasses by themselves, and both ethylamine and diethylamine are Listed Compounds. However, triethylamine is a liquid and is a commonpolar aprotic solvent for organic synthesis. It is known as trolamine commercially, and is not very expensive. It can be bought with zero suspicion, and is a rather common item for suppliers to stock.

What I have been wondering about (never tried this) is "sensitizing" NM with AN, or vice versa, "sensitizing" AN with NM. This would be similar to astrolite, but you only need a small quantity of nitromethane to make a perfectly balancing equation:

3 NH4NO3 + 2 CH3NO2 --> 4N2 + 9H2O + 2CO2

1.5M NH4NO3 = 120g
1M CH3NO2 = 61g @ 1.1371g/mL = 53.645mL

223.7g NH4NO3 / 100mL CH3NO2 or 100g NH4NO3 / 44.7mL CH3NO2

I wonder if for example, just how much NM 100g of AN could absorb/homogenize with WITHOUT a significant increase in volume, which lowers density. I have no AN or I would just do it and tell you myself. More or less you are just making an ANFO charge with NM as the fuel oil, but a much larger percentage of it. Even if this ratio could not be achieved without critical loss of density, ANY NM homogenized into the AN should produce a significantly greater power in explosive, when compared to an equal VOLUME of straight AN.

I would easily think it to be much more sensitive as well. Only possible problem I know of is that NM is more hygroscopic than nonpolar fuels commonly used, so care would likely have to be taken to ensure dryness.

PrimoPyro

[EDIT]Shit, didn't even think to just check the fucking search engine, this has likely been discussed before. If so, my apologies, I'm off searching now.[/EDIT]

[ August 14, 2002, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: PrimoPyro ]

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Mr Cool
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Icon 1 posted August 15, 2002 05:52 AM      Profile for Mr Cool   Author's Homepage   Email Mr Cool   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, you should've searched! Never mind though [Wink]
ANNM it is commonly called here, or kinepak. A lot of our members have used it as it's a powerful HE that is very easy and cheap to make, and the ingredients are relatively inert until mixed.

What about hexamine to sensitise NM? That's easy to get.
Or you could maybe heat ethylene glycol (antifreeze) with H2SO4 drain cleaner and sodium chloride to produce ethylene dichloride, then reflux this with household ammonia cleaner to get ethylenediamine. Then use this to sensitise NM or make ethylenediamine dinitrate, or if you have some acetic anhydride or P2O5 you could probably make it into ethylene dinitramine.

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Einstein
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Icon 10 posted August 15, 2002 06:14 AM      Profile for Einstein   Email Einstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, Iīm going next week to Tampere to buy ammonia (24%). Then Iīm going to test that NM+ammonia thing...BTW, all Finnish guys can check the results in finnish from http://koti.mbnet.fi/vaakkupr/NEWpb/ and Iīm going to send pics here too [Big Grin]

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Icon 1 posted August 15, 2002 06:54 AM      Profile for Microtek   Email Microtek   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
NG or EGDN are excellent if you dare make enough. NG also improves OB, and of course both increase the power.
When I used this it was usually the other way round; desensitizing NG or EGDN with nitromethane.

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cutefix
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Icon 6 posted August 19, 2002 06:54 PM      Profile for cutefix     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
"Also, is there other liquid explosives containing NM and some other substance (and I donīt wanīt to hear words Hydrazine OR/AND Astrolite!)"
I d not know if you really want to learn more about liquid explosives,or just plainly having an extreme phobia to hydrazine.But if you are serious about learning about liquid explosives then inevitably you cannot avoid encountering these powerful binary- Astrolite.
Look, even the late Timothy McVeigh first choice of fuel was anhydrous hydrazine when he designed that Oklahoma Bomb,but because he had difficulties ordering drums quantities of this rocket fuel, the only available supplier he found who could provide with him with such volumes quoted him such as high price for it that he was forced to shift to the more reasonably priced nitromethane in order to fulfil his goal.
Check if from the book titled ; “The American terrorist “written by Lou Michael and John Herbick , the only authorized biography of Timothy Mc Veigh.

I was wondering if he had enough money then, I would presume that the Alfred Murrah building would have been completely blown out,because of the very good brisance of this particular binary (compared to ANNM he was using)and casualties would have been much higher then. [Cool] [Big Grin]

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Helos
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Icon 1 posted September 29, 2002 05:53 PM      Profile for Helos   Author's Homepage   Email Helos   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mr cool: How much hexamine do you suggest to sensitize NM?

Also is it someone who have any data on how much you need of different chemicals to sensitize NM?

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Helos
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Icon 1 posted October 11, 2002 06:45 PM      Profile for Helos   Author's Homepage   Email Helos   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Okay guys! Have you made any progress experimenting in this area?

Sometimes it can happen that old threads like this becomes inactive, even if they are not unimportant, therefore I will repeat my question:

Mr cool: How much hexamine do you suggest to sensitize NM?

Also is it someone who have any data (or have been experimenting)on how much you need of different chemicals to sensitize NM?

Myself i have only tested NM with ammonia (read above)

I also now that it can be sensitized by, hydroxides, carbonates hexamine, aniline and maybee nitricacid.

I also had guessed that if you want to use for example NaOH you need to add it in the form of a strong solution (or have NM with water in it, or it wouldnt work)

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Mr Cool
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Icon 1 posted October 12, 2002 08:32 AM      Profile for Mr Cool   Author's Homepage   Email Mr Cool   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've never tried hexamine, but I think it must work.
Hmm... Hexamine forms 2+ ions in salts, mono/di/tri[methyl/ethyl]amine form 1+ ions, and it is known that 5% of these amines will sensitise NM, say 7.5% to have a bit extra for good luck... so I think you'd need about 5.2% hexamine to have a similar sensitising affect to 7.5% of triethylamine.

(Because 7.5*(MR(C6H12N4)/2)/MR((C2H5)3N) = 5.198)

[ October 12, 2002, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Mr Cool ]

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