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Author Topic: HMTD Synth With Pics
Anthony
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Icon 1 posted July 17, 2002 01:45 PM      Profile for Anthony   Email Anthony   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Being impressed with ALENGOSVIG1's pictorial synthesis posts, I thought I'd give it a go with the humble HMTD synthesis, seeing as I need to replenish my small stock anyway.

This would have been posted yesterday, but a last minute BBQ and 13 beers got in the way... [Smile] Don't worry though, I'm paying for it now [Frown]

We start with the precursors:

http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/HMTD01.jpg

200ml of 6% H2O2
18gm Hexamine
75ml of 30% HCl

The bottle of H2O2 has previously been chilled in the fridge.

Next, dissolve, with the aid of stiring, the hexamine in the cold H2O2:

http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/HMTD02.jpg

Then place the reaction vessel into an ice and gradually add the HCl, with stirring:

http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/HMTD03.jpg

Note that you should ideally check the temperature of the solution with a thermometer during the catalyst addition. But I managed to break my thermometer sortly before doing this synthesis so I resorted to a highly scientific method of dipping my finger into the solution to check that the temperature had not risen.

The reaction vessel is then placed in the refrigerator for 24-48 hours. I noticed reasonable crystal formation within three hours, with almost complete formation in under 24 hours. In the following day, little more crystals fell out of solution.

The reaction vessel 48 hours later:

http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/HMTD04.jpg

Note that most of my crystals had formed on the bottom of the reaction vessel with a thin layer on the surface - as is normal, untill shaking of the vessel resulted in a floating foam which would not settle. So I recomend avoiding aggitiation of the solution.

Then, using a piece of cloth as a filter, filter the crystals from the solution and discard the filtrate:

http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/HMTD05.jpg

Note that usually you will need to add some cold water to the reaction vessel, swill around and then dump into the filter in order to remove the crystals left clinging to the walls of the reaction vessel.

Filtration complete and the crystals in the filter:

http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/HMTD06.jpg

[ September 21, 2002, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Anthony ]

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Anthony
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Icon 1 posted July 17, 2002 01:46 PM      Profile for Anthony   Email Anthony   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gather up the corners of the filter cloth to form a little "bag" and run a stream of water through it from the tap, to wash the crystals:

http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/HMTD07.jpg

Next, prepare an approximately 4% solution of bicarbonate of soda with 200ml of cold water and 8gm of bicarb:

http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/HMTD08.jpg

Add the crystals to the solution and aggitate with stirring for a few minutes. The purpose of this is to neutralise any traces of the acidic catalyst left in the crystals:

http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/HMTD09.jpg

Then filter the crystals as before, but ensure that if the same filter cloth is used, that it has been thoroughly washed to avoid cross-contamination:

http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/HMTD10.jpg

Note that at this stage, I was also furnished with a cup of tea. Although eating/drinking is usually discouraged in a lab, I'm sure you will be fine if, like me, you avoid contaminating your drink with chemicals or worse, your synthesis with tea.

Then it's back under the tap for another rinse:

http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/HMTD07.jpg

The filter and its contents is then spread out on a newspaper and placed out of direct sunlight to dry:

http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/HMTD11.jpg

24 hours later, the crystals are dry and ready to use:

http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/HMTD12.jpg

Final yield was 12gm, hardly fantastic but then this is using pretty dilute OTC chemist H2O2.

Price break-down:

H2O2 - £0.69
Hexamine - £0.19
HCl - £0.19
TOTAL: £1.07

Cost per gram: £0.09

[ September 21, 2002, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: Anthony ]

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Eliteforum
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Icon 1 posted July 17, 2002 02:43 PM      Profile for Eliteforum   Email Eliteforum       Edit/Delete Post 
Excellent, very informative. If your HCl the One Shot drain cleaner? Or something else? And did you get it at B&Q?

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Anthony
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Icon 1 posted July 17, 2002 05:04 PM      Profile for Anthony   Email Anthony   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Spirit of Salts" - local DIY shop
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Mr Cool
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Icon 1 posted July 17, 2002 05:07 PM      Profile for Mr Cool   Author's Homepage   Email Mr Cool   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Lol, soon you'll start getting people saying HCl doesn't work for HMTD, only CTAP! Maybe now they will see the truth, and realise that it does work but they fucked it up.
Eliteform: HCl drain opener? I think you mean H2SO4 (that is what is normally called "One Shot"). The HCl can also be found at B&Q etc., as a stone cleaner.

Nice pics, very informative.

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kingspaz
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Icon 1 posted July 17, 2002 05:18 PM      Profile for kingspaz   Email kingspaz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
well done Anthony. the newbies now have a full good quality HMTD synth using easy to get chemicals. hopefully no more new threads 'Howz can i makez HMTD?'. i like all the pictures. they allways say what words never can which is good as it shows exactly whats happening.

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Icon 4 posted July 17, 2002 07:22 PM      Profile for Resident Evil   Author's Homepage         Edit/Delete Post 
I'll do a AP synth with pics tomorrow if I have the time.

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ALENGOSVIG1
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Icon 1 posted July 17, 2002 07:55 PM      Profile for ALENGOSVIG1   Email ALENGOSVIG1   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dont wase your time taking pics of AP synthesis. Thats been done already. Do something original.

Its good that your trying to contribute though.

Oh and nice job anthony.

[ July 17, 2002, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: ALENGOSVIG1 ]

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NERV
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Icon 14 posted July 17, 2002 08:13 PM      Profile for NERV   Author's Homepage   Email NERV   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Looks like I will have to try the HCL method again. Last time I tried to do it I didn’t get any crystals.

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sinstar
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Icon 9 posted July 17, 2002 09:30 PM      Profile for sinstar     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My yeild of HMTD is really shitty, well its very powerful but to make a decent cap I have to make two batches, Is this normal? And mine is not very sencitive, I've tryed hitting it with a hammer, rubbing it between house bricks, shouting at it, swearing at it evreything! I use the lab out of KIBC, except I replace the 6% with 9% hydrogen peroxide, I don't think I need to change the ratios as theirs not much difference between the 6% and the 9%, or do I? Oh and good work Anthony!
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xyz
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Icon 7 posted July 18, 2002 01:47 AM      Profile for xyz   Email xyz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just sharing a thought for your amusement(a bit off topic, I know): I'd love to see Mr. Bean trying this, especially the bit about accidentally getting the cup of tea mixed in with the synthesis [Smile] .

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None
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Icon 1 posted July 18, 2002 02:09 AM      Profile for None     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My HMTD isn't that shock sensitive either. It takes a hard blow with a hammer to detonate it, I was quite suprised.
I would adjust the amount of hexamine you are using. 6-9% is quite a difference, thats probably why you are getting such low yields. Besides, you might as well adjust it, because (for me at least) H2O2 is more expensive than hexamine.

I don't have very accurate scales and only ever make small batches. Does anyone know if adding too much hexamine would reduce the yields? As mentioned before my H2O2 is expensive and i would rather waste hexamine than risk wasting H2O2.

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Icon 14 posted July 18, 2002 02:52 PM      Profile for Rat Bastard   Author's Homepage   Email Rat Bastard   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nice Job Anthony.

Whenever I made HMTD I would use this formula (it worked pretty well with me)

- 45ml 6% H2O2
- 2 1/2 teaspoons Hexamine
- 4 1/2 teaspoons citric acid

( I got it from a member here but I can't remember his name)

I later tried Mega's recipie using 30% H202, but to my suprise I had pretty much the same yield as my 6%. Any suggestions?

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Icon 1 posted July 18, 2002 03:09 PM      Profile for S. Toppholzer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ratz Bastard - could you please for clarity's sake use grams instead of "teaspoons"? I'm a European and I can't make head nor tail out of that sort of measurement.
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Icon 1 posted July 18, 2002 03:12 PM      Profile for Arkangel   Email Arkangel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hmmmmm:

Coke, Diet Coke, Stella, Orangina, HMTD and if I'm not mistaken a tango bottle at the back. Nicely stocked fridge Anthony! [Big Grin]

As a newbie to this aspect of our hobie I can't tell you how valuable these guides are. I'd seen Alen's pages and was thoroughly impressed and this adds to it. To anyone that's thinking of similar things, I for one would really welcome it. Cheers [Wink]

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Anthony
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Icon 1 posted July 18, 2002 07:22 PM      Profile for Anthony   Email Anthony   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'll do a similar thing for a PETN synth with H2SO4 and KNO3 when I get some more nitrates (my bank balance needs to take a turn to the happier side first). I'll be doing NG my the same method again soon, I'll photograpgh if it would be considered too repeatitive of ALENGOSVIG1's NG synth with distilled HNO3.

Close on the drinks. Left to right: bottle of god-awful French beer, stella, smirnoff ice, orange "Glitz" (cheap, pretty nasty mixed vodka drink from COOP...), stella, Lime "Vodka69".

"tango?" I thought, I don't know how you did it, but I went and checked and there is actually a can of tango at the back. God knows how long it's been there, the use-by date is July 2002... But it must be the bretheren of the one I had the other week. I'd stumbled into the kitchen at 6am, grabbed the can, opened the can, noted that no gas escaped, I poured it into a glass and it formed two distinct, dark orange layers and was very flat, gross. I drank it anyway though because I was badly hung over and in dire need to liquid [Smile]

Before anyone calls me a Southern Fairly, those drinks are leftovers (I drink what I buy [Smile] ), the closest I have to those girly drinks is Shit Faced.

Ok, I think that's my masculinity established [Big Grin]

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ALENGOSVIG1
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Icon 1 posted July 18, 2002 07:44 PM      Profile for ALENGOSVIG1   Email ALENGOSVIG1   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ive already taken pics of the xNO3/H2SO4 method for nitro but I didnt get very good pics. Click on the link in my sig to see the nitro sythesis.

I cant wait to see the PETN pics synthesis though.

Oh and the HCl method works almost all of the time except 2 out of 20 times ive made HMTD it didnt work. Quite strange really. I dont know what happened. Still, i always use HCL becuase it cheaper then citric acid for me.

[ July 18, 2002, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: ALENGOSVIG1 ]

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Anthony
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Icon 1 posted July 19, 2002 01:15 PM      Profile for Anthony   Email Anthony   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My bad, I did check your website, but must have followed an old link to and old version, and saw that NG via H2SO4/xNO3 wasn't listed.
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marky
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Icon 12 posted July 19, 2002 08:37 PM      Profile for marky   Author's Homepage   Email marky   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Can someone do the AP Synth soon?
anyway just a sugestion...
thankyou

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ALENGOSVIG1
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Icon 13 posted July 19, 2002 08:52 PM      Profile for ALENGOSVIG1   Email ALENGOSVIG1   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's already been done by many poeple including myself. check out the link in my sig for AP synthesis with pics.

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Flake2m
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Icon 13 posted July 20, 2002 08:56 AM      Profile for Flake2m     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My HMTD experiment turned out to be a flop. the yeild was so bad that the cyrstals could be hardly seen. The main problems were avalibility of chemcials (I could only buy 100ml of 6% H2O2). I also didn't have access to a scale or a thermometre.
I will try to make some more HMTD again, but not until I can get some 30% H2O2.

Is there a major difference in yeild if you use HCL rather then citric acid ?

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sinstar
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Icon 5 posted July 20, 2002 09:17 AM      Profile for sinstar     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So does this lab need changing? 45ml of 9% hydrogen peroxide(in KIBC they say to use 6% but I can only get 9%), 2 and a half tsp of hexamine,4 and a half tsp of citric acid. The power of the final yeild is very good but getting a good amount is about as rare as rocking hourse shit. The final amount I get is about half of Anthonys.

[ July 20, 2002, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: sinstar ]

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Mr Cool
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Icon 1 posted July 20, 2002 11:01 AM      Profile for Mr Cool   Author's Homepage   Email Mr Cool   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No, it does not need changing.

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sinstar
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Icon 1 posted July 20, 2002 11:44 AM      Profile for sinstar     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So if it does not need(HA! got it right this time)changeing why is my yeild so poor?
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Anthony
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Icon 1 posted July 20, 2002 01:44 PM      Profile for Anthony   Email Anthony   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Using HCl, citric acid, or even H2SO4 shouldn't directly affect the yeild as it is only a catalyst.

To keep the ratios the same, but using 9% H2O2, use 50% less H2O2. It's all linear with different concentrations of H2O2 so it's just simple maths to work out how much you need (e.g 100ml of 3% = 10ml of 30%).

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rc
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Icon 1 posted July 20, 2002 04:56 PM      Profile for rc   Email rc   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
actually HCl isn't only a catalyst because hydrogen chloride reacts with hexamine forming formaldehyde and ammonium chloride.

[ July 20, 2002, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: rc ]

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kingspaz
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Icon 1 posted July 20, 2002 05:25 PM      Profile for kingspaz   Email kingspaz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
rc, if HCl reacts with hexamine to form ammonium chloride and formaldehyde then would H2SO4 react with it to form ammonium sulphate and formaldehyde (H2SO4 being more acidic)? this seems to be leading to the actual reaction mechanism which produces HMTD.

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rc
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Icon 1 posted July 20, 2002 06:06 PM      Profile for rc   Email rc   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There is a recipe in KIBC that uses ammonium sulphate, hydrogen peroxide and formaldehyde so you are right [Smile]

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sinstar
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Icon 5 posted July 20, 2002 08:53 PM      Profile for sinstar     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So Anthony, instead of useing 45ml of 9% H2O2, I would use 22 and a half mls of H2O2?
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None
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Icon 1 posted July 21, 2002 04:10 AM      Profile for None     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No, I'm pretty sure you would use 30ml of 9% instead of 45ml 6%. I think he may have meant 50% of the 30ml or something.
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Icon 5 posted July 21, 2002 06:17 AM      Profile for Celtick     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Since I have the 30% H2O2 now, and I have probably the same HCL (thanks to Arkangel [Wink] ) I converted the ratios into:

200ml of 6% H2O2 - 40ml of 30% H2O2
50ml of 30% HCl - 50ml of 30% HCl
18gm Hexamine - 18gm Hexamine

But I when I converted Mr Cools ratios I got:

225mL of 6% H2O2 - 45ml of 30% H2O2
150mL of 15% HCL - 75ml of 30% HCL
20g of Hexamine - 20gm of Hexamine

Not much of a difference, but it seems to me that there is to much acid in both of the reactions. But since I donít know how to cut the ratio down, could you give me the proper ratios with these chems.

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kingspaz
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Icon 1 posted July 21, 2002 08:27 AM      Profile for kingspaz   Email kingspaz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
the HCl is a catalyst for the reaction so the amount present will only affect the rate. if you need the HMTD fast use more acid. if you want to save on acid use less but you'll have to wait a few days. the amount of HCl used should be independent of the other two chemicals.

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Celtick
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Icon 1 posted July 21, 2002 08:44 AM      Profile for Celtick     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I know that the HCL just works as a catalyst, but your last reply on my other HMTD problem was:
quote:
I don't know the correct ratios but to me that looks like too much acid as Iíd say you only need around 25ml.
I thought that maybe by using too much acid you could sour your reaction.

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kingspaz
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Icon 1 posted July 21, 2002 04:19 PM      Profile for kingspaz   Email kingspaz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
it won't sour the reaction. unless you use waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much. but if you use less it saves you money [Smile] . so i'd use mr cools recipe but with 40ml of 30% HCl.

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Celtick
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Icon 1 posted July 21, 2002 06:17 PM      Profile for Celtick     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The amount of HCl wont mind since I got 6 litres for free [Big Grin] But thanks for the advice! I will experiment and post the results when Iím back from Spain (Iím leaving tomorrow)

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Anthony
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Icon 1 posted July 21, 2002 08:31 PM      Profile for Anthony   Email Anthony   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Interesting point on the role of the acid, thanks for pointing that out.

I just noticed a mistake in my original post. I used 75ml HCl, not 50ml as previously stated, I'm not sure why I mixed that up because the picture clearly shows the 100ml measuring cylinder to be 3/4 full.

I was shit tired when I made that last post so I will try to clarify the ratios issue:

The easiest way is to work out how much actual (pure) H2O2 there is in the stuff you have.

E.g in 200ml of 6% H2O2, there is 6ml of pure H2O2 per 100ml of total volume. So that's 12ml in the 200ml total.

So whatever concentration of H2O2 you use, you need to work it so that the amount of pure H2O2 stays constant at 12ml.

For 30%: 30%/12ml = 2.5, 100/2.5 = 40ml - which is what you worked out.

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Celtick
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Icon 1 posted August 01, 2002 08:06 AM      Profile for Celtick     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ok, so when using your recipe I should use:
40ml of 30% H2O2 - 50ml of 30% HCl and 18gm Hexamine
But because of the high concentration of the H2O2, shouldnít I use less HCL since the reaction doesnít need so much catalyst?

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kingspaz
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Icon 1 posted August 01, 2002 08:22 AM      Profile for kingspaz   Email kingspaz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
i personly don't think it matters although my thinking could very well be wrong. if you use less less HCl (30% HCl is 70% water [Wink] ) then theres less water added to dilute the H2O2 (but less actual HCl to catalyse) but if you use more acid then the H2O2 is diluted more by the extra water added (but made up for by more HCl present to catalyse). so either way the reaction rate would be similar.

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Celtick
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Icon 19 posted August 02, 2002 06:17 PM      Profile for Celtick     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kingspaz, today I tried to make HMTD with the above ratios. And (as for now) it didnít work, in my opinion due to too much acid. Take a look at the HMTD threat for the whole story.

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Icon 1 posted August 03, 2002 05:14 AM      Profile for kingspaz   Email kingspaz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
celtik, check out your post in the other thread: 35 + 5 + 30 = 70ml
in the ratios above it says to use 50ml. i think HMTD could be soluble in HCl or decomposed by the high acidity of HCl.

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Celtick
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Icon 1 posted August 03, 2002 05:48 AM      Profile for Celtick     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I converted the above ratios from Anthony:

200ml of 6% H2O2 - 12ml pure H2O2
18gm Hexamine - 18gm Hexamine
75ml of 30% HCl - 22,5ml pure HCl

12ml pure H2O2 - 40ml of 30%H2O2
18gm Hexamine - 18gm Hexamine
22 ml pure HCl - 70ml of 32%HCl

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kingspaz
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Icon 1 posted August 03, 2002 06:11 AM      Profile for kingspaz   Email kingspaz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
sorry celtick, i didn't realise you had converted them. well, the reason citric acid is usually prefered for HMTD is because it is not as acidic as HCl. HMTD seems to be very sensitive to acid contamination so need to be washed well. maybe this is due to acidity breaking it down. my complete and utter guess would be that if theres too much H+ present then the HMTD will decompose faster. i'd say it would be better to use less catalyst than needed although it will take longer you will not lose much HMTD (hopefully). hope that helped but remember i made ALOT of guesses [Wink]

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Anthony
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Icon 1 posted August 03, 2002 01:24 PM      Profile for Anthony   Email Anthony   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It would make sense, as with the high concentration H2O2 that you are using, there is considerably less water to dilute the HCl, thus giving an overall higher acidity to the reaction solution.
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Flake2m
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Icon 9 posted August 04, 2002 06:34 AM      Profile for Flake2m     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I tried making HMTD again using 200ml of 6% H2O2, about 14-16 grams of hexamine and a generous amount of citric acid. Yet again it is a flop. The experiment has been in the fridge for a little over 24 hours and there has been no visable reaction [Frown] . I am pretty sure I used pure hexamine as the stuff smelt like fish. What am I doing wrong? or is it just the g[m]ods of chemistry are stuffing me around?

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None
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Icon 1 posted August 04, 2002 07:39 AM      Profile for None     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Flake2m, I have had bad luck making HMTD with low percentage H2O2 as well, although mine was 3%. Hydroponics stores in Australia sell a product called Oxyplus which is 50% H2O2. Or you may have better luck with AP and 6%.

Has anyone else found HMTD to be more sensitive to shock when made with HCl rather than citric acid? It may have just been one batch, as i have only made it with HCl once, but it seemed quite a bit easier to detonate with a hammer. It was properly washed and neutralised.

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kingspaz
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Icon 1 posted August 04, 2002 09:32 AM      Profile for kingspaz   Email kingspaz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Flake2m, we are not stuffing you around because this is a place to learn. we are throwing ideas at the problem trying to solve your troubles. we obviously can't gaurantee its going to work since we are not the ones doing it. YOU are.
generous amount (too much H+?)? try about 12g of citric. if that doesn't work then maybe it could be your fishy hexamine.

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zaibatsu
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Icon 24 posted August 04, 2002 03:09 PM      Profile for zaibatsu   Email zaibatsu   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Flake2m, here's an interesting quote for you
"No disrespect or flaming of any moderator or administrator will be tolerated"

Do you want to stay here?
ATB, Zaibatsu

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nbk2000
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Icon 1 posted August 04, 2002 03:43 PM      Profile for nbk2000   Email nbk2000   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There's only one kind of person allowed here at The Forum...people wiling to learn and share what they've learned in an open and truthful manner.

NO ONE who deliberatly passed on false or misleading information would be allowed to remain here. Not member, mod, or even admin. Simply because such stupidity could get a person killed and further vilify an already endangered (and dangerous) hobby.

So your suggestion that a staffer would deliberately "stuff around" [Confused] about an explosives synth is insulting in the extreme. [Mad]

But since I don't think you meant it in an insulting manner you'l get to stay here. But be careful in the future about how you phrase things, eh? After all, the staffers have been here for years, and don't take kindly to having their hands bitten by ungrateful newbie dogs. [Wink]

(PS: YOU are ultimately responsible for any failures or successes you may have after following advice offered to you here on the Forum.)

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Anthony
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Icon 1 posted August 04, 2002 06:21 PM      Profile for Anthony   Email Anthony   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think we have a missunderstanding here [Smile]

I think Flake2m meant the gods of chemistry, like the crystalisation fairies who decide, based upon abosutely nothing, whether you get a precipitate or not - actually applicable to this situation incidentally.

Flake2m, First thing I'd do, it confirm that your hexamine actually is, as there's some similar substances used for cooking purposes. Secondly, I'd try using an alternative catalyst, maybe HCl, to eliminate another variable. I presume your H2O2 is pharmacutecal, so that should be fine.

If still no joy, give up and try AP [Smile]

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Flake2m
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Icon 22 posted August 05, 2002 10:37 AM      Profile for Flake2m     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Firstly, I am apologising to any m[g]od or admin that may have been insulted by my previous post, I had no intention of flaming or abusing anyone. I am willing to learn and share information at this forum.

Secondly, Good news [Big Grin] the HMTD synth is working, the reaction just took a little longer to get going. This probaly just shows I am a little impatient. The HMTD cyrstals have been forming for a liitle over 24 hours, I will filter and dry them in about 24 hours time.
My HMTD synth is at room temp and it seem to be doing just fine [Smile] .

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kingspaz
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Icon 1 posted August 05, 2002 04:51 PM      Profile for kingspaz   Email kingspaz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
good to hear its working!
just make sure you neutralise it thoroughly using anthony's method above and treat it with much more respect and gentler than BP. this is powerful stuff!

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Mic
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Icon 1 posted August 05, 2002 09:32 PM      Profile for Mic   Email Mic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Me too I have hexamine who smell like fish. I Try searching the forum and I didn't find anything about the smell of hexamine. Is your's smell fish too ? or it's that my hexamine have impurities? Mine is like esbit fire starter but it's another brand.

I tried making HMTD with it but I have used all my 9% H2O2 to make CTAP. So I took 3% but I have not very much so i take only 50 ml. To this, I add 2.5 gm fishy hexamine and 10 ml HCl. I put it in the fridge 3 days ago and nothing. I will wait until there is something in the bottom of the solution and i will tell u guys soon.

Ciao

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kingspaz
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Icon 1 posted August 06, 2002 05:37 AM      Profile for kingspaz   Email kingspaz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
mic, you need to add catalyst aswell. add some citric acid or HCl like you would for AP.

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Mr Cool
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Icon 1 posted August 06, 2002 06:39 AM      Profile for Mr Cool   Author's Homepage   Email Mr Cool   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
He added 10mL HCl [Wink] .

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Celtick
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Icon 6 posted August 06, 2002 12:04 PM      Profile for Celtick     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I succeed now in making HMTD with 30% H2O2/32% HCl check out my page for synthesis:

Celtick's Page

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Mic
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Icon 1 posted August 06, 2002 09:39 PM      Profile for Mic   Email Mic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ok, there is nothing yet about my HMTD so I add 10 others ml HCl. I think this will speed up a little the reaction.

Nobody's answer about my hexamine's question! What is the smell of hexamine ?? is it normal that it smell like fish or is my hexamine impure ????

Ciao

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"My crime is that of outsmarting you, something you will never forgive me for."

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Icon 16 posted August 06, 2002 09:48 PM      Profile for 0EZ0     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Someone didn't look hard enough [Wink]

Try this .

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Icon 1 posted August 07, 2002 06:24 AM      Profile for kingspaz   Email kingspaz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
mic, don't get annoyed that nobody answered your question. don't just come here and demand answers we're not a fucking school and we don't get paid so be thankful for what you do get.

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Icon 1 posted August 07, 2002 07:05 AM      Profile for PrimoPyro   Author's Homepage   Email PrimoPyro   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Your hexamine has undergone partial hydrolysis to produce that familiar rotting fish smell of methylamine and/or formaldehyde.

Haha, you just made a List 1 chemical buddy! Better turn yourself in before the Karma Police get you! [Razz]

PrimoPyro

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Mic
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Icon 1 posted August 07, 2002 09:31 AM      Profile for Mic   Email Mic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
kingspaz: sorry, im not getting annoyed.. [Frown]

oezo: ooops [Eek!] I haven't seen that [Roll Eyes]

and well, there's nothing yet about my HMTD... I'm waiting for it

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Flake2m
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Icon 6 posted August 10, 2002 07:58 AM      Profile for Flake2m     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am probaly going to get another 200 k3w| points for this but anyway:
I pressed about a gram of HMTD into a small plastic container I found (15mm X 10mm ). I used a chop stick to press the HMTD, I then put a small piece of carboard on top. I then pressed some BP on top of the cardboard. I didn't have any fuse so i tried using i bit of rolled up newspaper, this of course didn't work so I settled for plan B. I used a pair of pliers to move the small container I then threw it into the fireplace we have. Mum was nearby a saw me through it in, "that didn't do much she said [Roll Eyes] " as the BP ingnited, then 2 seconds later BANG [Eek!] , the pressed HMTD detonated and all the ash in the fire place went all over the floor, as well as some hot coals. I was lucky the room had a tiled floor [Eek!] .
I have also gained much more respect and care for this stuff.

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NERV
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Icon 8 posted August 10, 2002 05:48 PM      Profile for NERV   Author's Homepage   Email NERV   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think that is one of the most k3wl things I have ever heard. Throwing a primary explosive like HMTD into A fire is just plain stupid. You could have a piece of flaming wood stuck in your head.

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"you can go a long way with a smile. You can go allot farther with a smile and a gun" Al Capone

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kingspaz
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Icon 1 posted August 10, 2002 06:35 PM      Profile for kingspaz   Email kingspaz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
if he did he would deserve it. that stupid irrelevent crap does not fit into this topic as its about HMTD synthesis not hot to be a fucking idiot with explosives. people like you give pyros and explosives a bad reputation.
now back to the topic at hand, HMTD synthesis.

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The unexamined life is not worth living to a human

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Flake2m
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Icon 4 posted August 11, 2002 07:49 AM      Profile for Flake2m     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The point of the post was HOW NOT TO TREAT HMTD (someone out there now knows). I just choose to learn the hard way [Frown] (and believe me I have learnt because I had to clean up the mess! [Eek!] ). I have also learnt not to underestimate the power of HMTD [Roll Eyes] .

The yield of HMTD I got from that synthesis was much less than expected. I only managed to get about 1-2 grams of HMTD. In conclusion, the next batch I make I will be more patient and let it precipitate over a week, instead of 3 days.

Thank you to the g[m]ods for helping me with the HMTD synthesis [Big Grin] .

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No mercy.

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parabolic
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Icon 1 posted August 19, 2002 03:02 PM      Profile for parabolic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
in my dream i attempted to make my first HMTD with 60g 6% h2o2, same as Anthony's peroxide, same make too [Smile] , also 6g of powdered hexamine, 20g granulated citric acid. i added the citric acid first with no heat problems, then added the hex in small amounts whilst stiring until all was desolved. i noticed that there was still no heat at all. after that i left the mix to react, checking for any heat, but still no heat after 1 hr. all i could see after the solution settled was a frothy white substance floating an top of the solution, nothing on the bottom, and the solution looked as if it was carbonated with loads of still bubbles in it. but not bubbling.

i left it 24hrs at room temp, and the solution looks the same, to me it looks like no reaction has taken place.

should i add more citric acid, as ive read in some threads to start the reaction off, or just leave it?.

The hex i used is labled "Highlander solid fuel tablets", i smelt them and they smell slightly of fish, and are pale white, slighty grey. they powder up really well too.

The other hex tablets i have are in a black box labled "Portable cooker, 8 solid fuel tablets", these REALLY stink of fish, so bad i have to keep them in the box, and they are pure white, i havent tried these ones yet, wanted to try the other brand first.

also, i have a bottle of "cleaner and descaler" bought from b&q it says on the back, ..this product contains hydrochloric acid.

but it dont say what % of HCI is in there and i have not got any ph paper or anyother way of testing to see what strength of HCI i have.

i wouldnt mind trying Anthony's method which uses HCI, but i dont want to try this cleaner and descaler until i find out if it has a suitable amount of HCI in it.

any ideas.

thanks for reading.

para.

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zaibatsu
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Icon 1 posted August 19, 2002 03:58 PM      Profile for zaibatsu   Email zaibatsu   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi parabolic, good to see more people from the UK, even if you are from Scotland [Wink]

Back on topic:
The commonly available "brick cleaner" HCl is around 10-15%, and is suitable for use in HMTD (be careful still, nto sure about the impurities).

If there isn't a problem with the Citric (I'm guessing you either bought it from a chemists or a homebrew section of a shop), and I guess you're using H2O2 from a chemist, then that can't be the problem either. Therefore I reckon its the hexamine!

So I say try the pure-white tablets, they sound like they will work, HTH.

[ August 19, 2002, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: zaibatsu ]

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kingspaz
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Icon 1 posted August 19, 2002 06:25 PM      Profile for kingspaz   Email kingspaz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
smells like the hexamine is the problem (sorry for the poor joke [Smile] ). the fishy smell is down to the hexamine decomposing. nice new fresh hexamine is what you need! grey hexamine tablets sound really shitty. as zaibatsu said pure white coloured ones are what you need.

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parabolic
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Icon 1 posted August 19, 2002 06:37 PM      Profile for parabolic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
thanks guys for the advice, btw i was born in salford, manchester so really iam from england and have lived in scotland for the past 15 years [Smile] , anyway, the white greyish hex is the new hex i recently bought and doesnt really smell, it is the one i tried with the experiment that didnt seem to werk. to me the hex i used would seem the worst to use as i have reason to belive from reading past threads on hex, that the fishy smell is a BIG sign to tell me it is the real stuff., and the fishy stuff is pure white., anyway what ill do is try the exact same experiment but with the other hex, the one that really smells [Smile] .

ill keep you updated and hope i get sume HTMD.

thanks again.

para

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parabolic
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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2002 04:04 PM      Profile for parabolic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi folks, in my dreams it was a success!!, I finally made it . I tried using the old type hex I got from a camping store, the white and really bad fishy smelling hex. The amounts were, 60grams of 6% h2o2, 20grams citric acid granules and 6grams of powdered hex. The solution after mixing was very clear, no heat just a nice cold solution at room temp. I left the jar out of sunlight at room temp for 48hrs, still no heat was felt during all this time as I checked it often., anyway I noticed It had white stuff at the bottom of the jar and frothy stuff at the top after 48hrs, I filtered it all and poured water over it. I then took a small swob on a pencil and tried to light it with a lighter but nothing happened. So I used a hair dryer to dry the small amount I had on this pencil. I then tried to light it again, and to my total astonishment it flashed as quick as I could blink.. this was amazing. I though black powered was fast.

My only hope is that I can get another couple of boxes of this hex to keep me stocked up, or try the same again with the newer hex that didnít seem to work the last time, caus all it had was froth, maybe the froth was HMTD and I should of dried that out and tried it?

Anyway this was most enjoyable, and I can see how carefull I shoud be with this stuff.

Was wanting to know if I should keep the water and HMTD together in a jar, until I need it, then all I have to do is dry it out, but will this destroy the HMTD over time by having it I water?

I couldnít achieve this with out the expert knowledge of you guys, ta.

Para.

[ August 22, 2002, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: parabolic ]

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kingspaz
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Icon 1 posted August 22, 2002 05:56 PM      Profile for kingspaz   Email kingspaz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
parabolic, make sure you wash the HMTD with bicarb solution as detailed in anthony's posts at the begining of the topic. if you do not do this then expect an accident. this is one of the reasons HMTD has a bad reputation. avoid contact with sulphur also as it is acidic.
avoid all scrapes and forms of friction and whatevr you do do not get comfortable making it because thats when it'll go off, when you least expect it to [Wink]
good luck and be careful! and also avaoid the hair dryer for the main batch as the heat will cause sublimation and accelerated decomposition and therefore a loss of product.

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parabolic
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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2002 10:52 AM      Profile for parabolic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, my hmtd works very well, nice loud bang from a 1 gram charge.

Anyway, I have been very disappointed in the amount of hmtd I get from my experiments, I have been using, 60grams of 6% h2o2, 20grams of citric acid and 6grams of hex. My final yield after 48hours is a rather wimpy .7grams [Frown]

I have tried adding 10grams of hex, but the yield hasnít really changed, and I was wanting to know if anyone can tell me if I could improve the yield by adding more or less of any of the ingredients.

I do not use "spoons" as a measurement as this is very silly I use only grams or grains, as this is the only way to measure accurately.

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kingspaz
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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2002 04:39 PM      Profile for kingspaz   Email kingspaz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
ok, i think you are using too little H2O2. i haven't got the equations infront of me to work out how much to use but try using 200g H2O2 with the rest of the ingredients the same (20g citric, 6g hex) and see if that improves yields at all. if it doesn't then atleast you know the H2O2 isn't the problem.

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The unexamined life is not worth living to a human

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