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Author
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Topic: AP Plasticizer
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Kettch42mk.2
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posted May 29, 2002 05:50 PM
In an attempt to make AP crystals easier to work with, I mixed some with PVC glue. After mixing in enough to make the crystals clump together completely, I let it dry. To test it, I heated .25g in a spoon over a propane torch. The detonation was extremely loud compared to a similar quantity of straight AP. Anybody have any why this would be?
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plasma
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posted May 29, 2002 05:57 PM
When CTAP is heated on a spoon it melts, as it melts it gets a higher density and the VoD gets higher. Try heating straight CTAP on a spoon and see if there is any differense.
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Madog555
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posted May 29, 2002 06:01 PM
wtf?!?! u are heating a mix that has AP in it in a spoon. wtf is it supose to do!?!?!
was that an atemt at an improvised AP putty? u can also use rubber sement. im not sure how it compares to the traditional AP/SP + acetone and let dry mix which is said to be more powerful than TNT and i can believe it.
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kingspaz
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posted May 29, 2002 06:16 PM
the advantage of 'traditional' AP putty with NC is that the binder is also explosive. thus creating a much greater explosive effect compared to inert binders.
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plasma
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posted May 29, 2002 06:20 PM
What is the ratios of NC and CTAP in the 'traditional' AP putty
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kingspaz
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posted May 29, 2002 06:32 PM
sorry, i haven't a clue! as far as i know you make a paste by dissolving smokeless powder (nitrocellulose) in acetone. to this paste you add as much AP as will mix with it. then you put it in the container of your choice and let it dry. you are then left with a rock solid block of explosive which is powerful and easily initiated with fuse.
i think thats how its done, i still haven't tried this yet because it STILL can't manage to nitrate cellulose succesfully.
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Kettch42mk.2
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posted May 29, 2002 07:12 PM
Plasma, the louder detonation was in comparison to heating straight AP on a spoon.
Madog, This is only my third batch of AP, so I'm still playing around with it-trying to get a feel for its properties. Reading about other people doing stuff is great, but to really get a sense of how these things work, I need to mess around with them a bit. (In very small quantities, of course.)
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Madog555
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posted May 29, 2002 07:13 PM
kingspaz, thats correct. i also cant find ratios. i was thinking about this the other day. ping pong balls work too. nitrostarch will also work.
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NoltaiR
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posted May 30, 2002 01:30 AM
Hey guys, I haven't been around here much lately due to all the graduation parties going on along with me now working a lot more hours. (Not to mention my parents took my lab away until I move out of my house... I guess that means one of these days I am gonna have to get my happy ass an apartment). Anyways for this 4th of July and going to use the money that I would have otherwise spent on commercial fireworks to instead work on my old APrc mixes. And about 2 hours ago I just bought a gallon and a half of 3% H2O2 to be boiled down to 300mL of approximately 27-28% H2O2. I also bought a liter of acetone and a pint of rc.
Now on my past tests that were conducted a few months ago I never took pictures because I didn't want that kind of thing to get developed. But now my nextdoor neighbor has a digital camera so I am going to make plenty of visual for you guys.
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mr.evil
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posted May 30, 2002 01:31 AM
quote:
When CTAP is heated on a spoon it melts, as it melts it gets a higher density and the VoD gets higher. Try heating straight CTAP on a spoon and see if there is any differense.
i think you are a idiot, heating primairy explosives on a spoon is suicide... (you CAN do it with TNT and other non sensitive HE's)
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mrloud
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posted May 30, 2002 04:31 AM
I was under the impression that heating AP caused it to sublime. At the very least heating is supposed to destroy its explosive properties. Can anyone else confirm or deny this?
If you took too long heating the AP up in the spoon, this waiting time could affect its explosive properties. I'd like to see the same experiment performed but instead of heating the AP over a flame, use a fuse or a static electricity spark to cause the detonation.
[ May 30, 2002, 04:35 AM: Message edited by: mrloud ]
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plasma
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posted May 30, 2002 01:25 PM
To mr. Evil
The melting would of course be done with an amount of CTAP similar to the quart of a pea. I really don't think this will kill you. But your are right, primaries should be handled carefully and be used only what it is ment to; explode controlled, far away from any living creature. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
And mrloud I can asure that CTAP does explode when heated on a spoon untill it melts. (At least thats what happened when I tried it with a small amount)
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DBSP
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posted May 30, 2002 03:29 PM
I don't think that the ratio of AP-putty is very important. As long as the AP-putty doesn't fall apart it shuld be fine. One thing you can do to improve it is to smear a thin layer of NC on the outside to make it waterproof and less sensitive to shock, friction and spark.
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electric emu
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posted May 30, 2002 10:36 PM
I thougt i saw something that said under melt temp, it will detonate before melting. Im already scared of ap by just moving it.
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A.K.A : Dan The Crazed Aussie
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posted May 31, 2002 03:44 AM
hey fellas.
I heard that u could make a pretty good binder for ap by mixing this in ratio= 80:20 acetone to pipe primer (The red stuff that smells like crap
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0EZ0
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posted May 31, 2002 09:31 AM
quote:
I heard that u could make a pretty good binder for ap by mixing this in ratio= 80:20 acetone to pipe primer (The red stuff that smells like crap
First of all PVC Pipe Primer Fluid , is MEK(Methyl Ethyl Ketone) with a dye. It has the consistency of water, but smells nothing like it.
What i think you are referring to is PVC Pipe Cement/Glue . It contains roughly 50-70% MEK with some type of soluble plastic.
It is a thick goo, with quite a nasty odour.
Now reading above the method of binding AP with PVC Pipe Glue is already mentioned. As for the ratios of each component, they were not.
To bind the AP with PVC Pipe Glue, use as little as is needed to bind it. Overdoing it will result in poor performance due to the PVC Pipe Glue being non-energetic, unlike Nitro Cellulose which is an energetic binder.
Anyone know how safe AP/PVC Glue would be, as compared to AP/NC?
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NoltaiR
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posted May 31, 2002 02:57 PM
Now this is just a theory that will need some serious testing to prove... but any glue labeled 'extremely flammable' may serve as a good binder for crystalline type explosives such as AP.
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kingspaz
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posted May 31, 2002 04:45 PM
NoltaiR, what exactly do you mean? do you mean the glue labelled 'extremely flammable' will be a more energetic binder? IF thats what your on about then it make balls all difference how flammable it is since AP is oxygen defficient and also the flamability is caused by the solvent not the glue.
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NoltaiR
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posted June 01, 2002 01:34 AM
The statement came from results that I have had while testing non-flammable glues as binders (I.E. woodglue, white school glue) which led to my AP never detonating and rather just making a fireball.
Yet every glue that I have tested it with and found to be satisfactory has been flammable.
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kingspaz
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posted June 01, 2002 05:49 PM
i don't think that has anything to do with the flamibility of the glue but more the sort of binder it is. the flammable stuff will use flammable solvents which are useful for dissolving plastic like binders. PVA for example is a shit glue which is flexible and rubbery even when dry. not hard such as other more plasitc glues.
does that make sense?....i'm not that good at explaining...
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NoltaiR
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posted June 01, 2002 08:47 PM
Well the main problem that I should say that I have with APrc is making sure that it is completely dry, otherwise it will simply make a fireball (similar to wet AP). But just because the APrc looks dry doesn't mean it is.. I usually just have to wait until the outside of the clumps start getting sticky, because that means that the AP has completely dried and started to vaporize, leaving rc behind.
Anyways I set off a few 25g charges today.. nothing special, just blowing up fallen trees that have rotted.
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rc
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posted June 02, 2002 04:04 AM
I recently was looking labels in a market to find whatever useful chemical and found a tube which contains benzoperoxide with some solvent. in the fact sheet it says that friction or heating may cause fire or explosion...now I am thinking if it could make a good plastizer. I'll try it as soon as get my h2o2 from drug store.
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NoltaiR
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posted June 02, 2002 11:14 PM
A thought came to me earlier today while rereading these posts.
As explained, the APrc is not very moldable; in fact, when you bend it too much it just breaks off into smaller chunks (that may be squeezed back together if you so choose). But I was thinking that because the APrc chunks are sticky, they could be placed onto vertical structures for deployment without something else to hold it there. Just stick a fuse in and ignite.
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kingspaz
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posted June 03, 2002 06:06 PM
rc, i think the bezoylperoxide is used as a source of radicals (O in this case) in polymerising the glue or whatever it does to cure it.
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Zambosan
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posted June 04, 2002 03:07 PM
Pretty close; the glue is already a fluid polymer, and the oxygen radicals cross-link it into a macromolecule.
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inferno
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posted June 05, 2002 04:43 AM
Clear nailpolishes are made of nitrocellulose and butyl acetate, with smaller amounts of a few other things (On one of my sisters at least, they may vary).
Add some AP to the nailpolish, mold it into a tube or something, and stick a fuse of some kind in, cant AP/NC reach DDT when ignited by fuse? Still have to be careful with it, but its probably safer than straight AP in a tube.
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FMShadow
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posted June 05, 2002 01:18 PM
apropos ap putty:
how insensitive is ap putty? can it be thrown against a wall without detonating? cause... i would like to have some ap or ap putty or ap whatever that is not so sensitive...
i mean i dont wanna blow my hands away while trying to make a pipebomb ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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kingspaz
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posted June 05, 2002 04:29 PM
FMShadow, AP putty is just as sensitive as AP is to shock and impact because its mostly AP! it is less sensitive to friction because the crystals are not free to move and scrape and rub against things.
also if you make pipe bombs with AP you deserve losing your hands for being so dumb.....use as little AP as possible to initiate a secondary.
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xtreme
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posted June 05, 2002 04:53 PM
I have mixed AP with vaseline.
Nothing happend when I hit this with a hammer (perhaps with big hammer. It burns much more slowly than normal AP. It burns like BP.
I haven't checked what a blastingcap will do.....perhaps next.
First I have to make new AP. I have detonated my 3...4 weeks old AP today because I'am not happy with old AP in my bedroom
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xtreme
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posted June 05, 2002 05:02 PM
FMShadow
Why you use pipe (metal tube) for AP-bombs?
AP detonated by itself. It is not BP that must be "packed" to give a boom. With metalpipe you can't look (if you want to be safe)to your detonation or only from a great distance. I use PVC (PolyVinylChloride) pipe (plastic) for just to be safe for direct fire or something. You can detonated HE in a plasticbag with a blastingcap in it ! So why take the risk for metal fragments in your or somebody else body?!
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inferno
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posted June 06, 2002 06:02 AM
FMShadow: I think you should read a bit more about explosives before you ask stuff like that. I might be wrong but from what you said about pipe bombs, i think youre lacking a bit, i apologise if im wrong though.
A low explosive (LE) is a fuel/oxidiser mix, and when ignited (by flame, heat, friction, and sometimes shock) they burn very fast, such as blackpowder. Fireworks mixtures are low explosives. They are a homogenous mixture of an oxidiser (various nitrates, potassium/sodium chlorate, potassium perchlorate, potassium permanganate are the main ones) and a fuel (sulfur, charcoal, fine metal powders like Al, Mg, Zn etc)
A high explosive is a single chemical, not a mix. It is a molecule, that when exposed to a shock (from another HE, hammer blow etc) breaks apart, releasing the energy bonding it's atoms together. This energy comes out as heat, a shockwave, sound and light. Whether in a pipe or not, a HE will make a nice boom. The energy released is the sound, not the sudden burning of it. Some HE's are more sensitive than others, eg nitrogen triiodide (touch powder, NH<sub>3<sub>.NI<sub>3<sub> is obviously touch sensitive, and will detonate from the shock of a feather being dropped on it. Ammonium nitrate (NH<sub>4</sub>NO<sub>3</sub>) is almost impossible to detonate without a sensitiser, like nitromethane, or commonly just oil (then called ANFO - ammonium nitrate fertilizer and oil), in which case it is still very hard to detonate.
There are two types of HE, primary explosives, and secondary explosives. Primary explosives are much more sensitive, some examples are AP, Mercury Fulminate, and nitrogen triiodide, though it is not used for anything more than demonstrations because it is too sensitive. Secondaries generally need the shock of another HE to detonate, such as Ammonium nitrate, trinitrotoluene (TNT) and Sodium chlorate, and often a sensitiser, such as oil for AN and vaseline for SC.
That is where the "detonator" or blasting cap comes into use. It is usually an initiator LE, such as blackpowder, with a fuse into it, which, when ignited, suddenly compresses and detonates the primary, which is often followed by a secondary, in (usually) a small metal tube. The primary/secondary detonating releases a shock wave through the main charge of a secondary explosives, which then detonates.
Most HE's have a DDT point, or Deflagration to Detonation Transition, where, when the HE is ignited by flame or spark, it burns very quickly, like BP, then turns into detonation. This all happens very quickly though, and you cant really "see" if its deflagrating or detonating, though the sound and crater etc will usually tell you. Some HE's are also LE's, such as guncotton, or nitrocellulose. If ignited by flame, it burns very quickly. If shocked, it detonates. Most primaries burn very well with a small fireball when ignited in the open, but some when confined will reach the DDT point.
Im sorry if you knew all this, but whether you use a metal pipe or a plastic pen or film canister, your AP putty will still make a nice bang.
[ June 17, 2002, 04:26 AM: Message edited by: inferno ]
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kingspaz
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posted June 06, 2002 05:19 PM
one last thing, ANFO actually stands for ammonium nitrate fuel oil.
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Omogen
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posted June 11, 2002 08:35 AM
the formula with AP+SP and acetone...does the ap get less sensitive also?
Hmmmm, APputty more powerfull than TNT? nae i dont really believe that but it can be...
Btw there was a guy who posted something about his own produced plastic explosive which he wanted to sell here...i think he named it to HARDEX or something...did someone get the formula of him?
The videos on his site were pretty amazing
sry for my english im from sweden and that kinda explains alot
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DBSP
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posted June 11, 2002 08:49 AM
Does it?, my english is just fine. How old are you btw?
The AP putty seemes to be a little less sensitive, at least when talking about friction.
[ June 11, 2002, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: DBSP ]
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Omogen
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posted June 11, 2002 09:03 AM
im 17 and live in Stockholm
i always say so so noone will say that my english sucks
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xoo1246
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posted June 11, 2002 10:42 AM
Keep on typing/reading and your english will improve.
From Sweden too.
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kingspaz
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posted June 11, 2002 06:37 PM
ok, this is me trying to get it back on topic...
i think the reason AP putty is less sensitive to friction is because each AP crystal has a thin layer of NC over it protecting it from being rubbed by other crystals and other objects. also the crystals are held in fixed positions so they cannot move around and scrape on each other or anything else. i can't think of any other reasons...i am not speaking from experience here as i STILL haven't had success with NC ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Rat Bastard
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posted June 17, 2002 12:22 AM
quote:
kingspaz, thats correct. i also cant find ratios. i was thinking about this the other day. ping pong balls work too. nitrostarch will also work.
Same here. I have searched everywhere and I can't find a damn ap putty ratio. I keep on seeing this:
quote:
Pour the required amount of acetone peroxide into a bowl, than slowly add the paste until the mixture has a moldable density than remove.
How the hell are we supposed to know what the "required amount" is?!?!
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
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ALENGOSVIG1
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posted June 17, 2002 01:05 AM
The ratio of AP to NC doesnt really matter. If the putty is crumbly, then you added too much AP. In this case, add a little more NC paste. If its sticky and gooey then you didnt add enough AP. I cant believe im explaning this. It just seems so obvious to me.
If you cant figure out how to make AP putty then do yourself a favour and stay away from explosives. You'll live longer. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
[ June 17, 2002, 02:38 AM: Message edited by: ALENGOSVIG1 ]
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Rat Bastard
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posted June 17, 2002 07:38 PM
quote:
I cant believe im explaning this. It just seems so obvious to me.
We are not psycic and know every ratio and amount.
I have made HMTD and AP many times without error, it's just that the AP putty instructions were too damn vague.
Vagueness can nickname you "stumpy"
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Sparky
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posted June 26, 2002 02:54 PM
I was reading a book that mentioned styrene-butadiene rubber as being used as chewing gum. It might not be as powerful as NC since it is not energetic but NC putty would dry out wouldn't it?
Styrene butadiene would keep its physical properties for storage, you would have to use HMTD instead of AP if you wanted to store it of course. I found styrene-butadiene on the internet sold as Glaziers Choice mirror adhesive GC 2010. I think a solvent for it is naphtha. You can also get styrene-butadiene from make your own bubble gum kits I guess. You could probably either dissolve it in naphta and then add the explosive or knead the explosive into non dissolved rubber. I'm not sure if this would work but if it did the putty would have excellent physical properties.
This product is also used in car tires but it is vulcanized, so not very useful in that form.
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electric emu
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posted July 07, 2002 04:41 PM
I just made some ap/sp putty today but its drying, also i didnt hear anyone say rocket fuel binders like r45.
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kingspaz
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posted July 07, 2002 05:55 PM
Sparky, NC/AP putty is supposed to dry you mold it over or in whatever you want, put a fuse in and let it dry. once its dry you have a solid block of explosive in the shape you molded it too. then you light the fuse and run
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electric emu
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posted July 08, 2002 04:58 PM
I had a little problem drying, i put mine in half of an easter egg shell and only the top dried and the bottom stayed wet so i took it out the egg shell and it worked well and mine looked like wood when it was dry.
[ July 08, 2002, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: electric emu ]
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Purple Fire
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posted July 10, 2002 03:10 AM
I make most of my AP into putty by mixing it with smokeless paste. It comes out as a fairly solid greenish stuff that will snap if you drop it. It is fairly insensitive to friction, and will detonate unconfined from a fuse. The only problem is that my visco occasionally goes out when it hits the putty, I have no idea why. As far as I can see, there is no change, or maybe a slight increase in the det. velocity of the putty. Fun to play with none the less
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Anthony
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posted July 10, 2002 11:38 AM
If the fuse fails where it meets the putty, then it's probably that the solvent in the putty has dissolved the laquer on the fuse and screwed around the powder train.
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electric emu
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posted July 10, 2002 03:27 PM
Thats what it did to my fuse and it started to unravel but it still burned.
[ July 10, 2002, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: electric emu ]
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marky
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posted July 19, 2002 08:50 PM
If you want some Ap prober putty the go and buy ping-pong balls they are made with NC so all you have to do is disolve them in acetone and
wola there you have it NC putty all you have to do is put in some Ap and then let it dry with some fuse in it ...
Hope that helps people
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Fuck shootin im just tryin 2 know his teeth out ''Fuck with me now bitch lets see you freestyle!
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kingspaz
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posted July 20, 2002 07:31 AM
the reason ping pong balls are unfavourable is because they also contain champhor which is non energetic and also the NC used in the balls has a low nitrogen content so is now were near as effective as smokeless powder.
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marky
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posted July 21, 2002 10:23 PM
What about the people that cant get there hands on NC powder so they use ping-pong balls???
It still works it just sometimes doesent fully detonate...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Fuck shootin im just tryin 2 know his teeth out ''Fuck with me now bitch lets see you freestyle!
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Anthony
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posted July 21, 2002 10:53 PM
Yeah, that's what generally everyone does...
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ALENGOSVIG1
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posted July 21, 2002 11:08 PM
quote:
What about the people that cant get there hands on NC powder so they use ping-pong balls???
Thats never happened to me. It ALWAYS fully detonates. My guesse is that your putty wasnt fully dried. It may have been dried on the outside, but below the surface it was most likely still wet.
Or mabe your using way to much NC and not enough AP. Although i dont think this is the case becuase for it to not fully detonate it'd have to a thick paste of NC with barely any AP content. But thick paste isnt putty so im guessing (hoping) thats not the problem.
[ July 21, 2002, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: ALENGOSVIG1 ]
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marky
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posted July 22, 2002 06:30 AM
no im telling other peoples stories about the not fully det thing.
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Fuck shootin im just tryin 2 know his teeth out ''Fuck with me now bitch lets see you freestyle!
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Mick
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posted July 22, 2002 10:33 AM
[quote[Sparky, NC/AP putty is supposed to dry you mold it over or in whatever you want, put a fuse in and let it dry. once its dry you have a solid block of explosive in the shape you molded it too. then you light the fuse and run
[/quote]
just a word of warning when lighting APP. make sure all of the APP is covered by something(like a couple of layers of tape). you shouldn't be able to see any of the APP.
if your using a fuse(eg. a sparkler) all it takes is 1 spark to set the hole thing off.
altho this seems pretty obvious to most people, i just thought i might post it just in case someone gets the idea that because its putty it doesn't matter (hey, you never know with all the newb's around here)
i left a tiny little sqaure of APP visable(1mm x 1mm). i had enough fuse for atleast 60seconds to run away. i lit it, then started running, and after 10 seconds it went off. could have been shitloads worse.
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binary mz
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posted July 29, 2002 02:21 AM
im new to ctap (5 months in to it) i never like being around or using it when its dry, so ive been doing some expiriements lookin for good/cheap ways to de-sensitize ap. i cant get smokeless powder anywhere. the only place that sells powder here is wal-mart and they only sell single base pyrodex. real slow stuff. but, i've been mixing it with nail harder with very good results. i'll usually just get a wet piece about the size of a grape and put it on a piece of carboard and flatten it out and add nail hardner and mix with the wooden end of a match. real thick so it drys fast but not too much so theres extra dry ap everywhere. but, after its dry i'll put some home made fuse (cotton string dipped in pyrodex and water, dried, and covered with teflon pipe tape) and cover it all with some duct tape. first time i did this i was expecting it to flare up real fast so i put it on the end of a wooden picnic bench, lit it, and stepped back about 5 feet. damn. my past experience was just bp and flash. so, yah, this scared the hell out of me. it blew a nice chunk of the corner and left a weird smell in the air. i plan to try out pingpong balls, rubber cement, and pvc glue. what else does everyone mix it with ? any one use wet ap ? how does everyone use it? just dry ap lightly packed in to a tube? im to scared to do that. i always clean it and dip it in bicarb solution and never had problems with it, then again i treat it like nitroglycerin...
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kingspaz
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posted July 29, 2002 05:48 AM
haha, thats funny since AP is actually more sensitive than NG. the sensitivity of NG is often over eggagerated. so long as you wash and neutralise it well and avoid scrapes and heat you should be ok. but if your not prepared to take the consequences if it goes off when you don't expect it to (which peroxides are prone to) then don't play with it.
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megalomania
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posted July 30, 2002 01:43 AM
Lets call it TCAP or just AP shall we. Unless anyone can offer a published source that calls it CTAP, I have a published source that calls it TCAP, but acetone peroxide is a more acceptable name since technically you get a mixture of the tricyclo, dicyclo and non-cyclic poly peroxides. Everyone does remember the polyperoxide part right?
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