Path: senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.rediris.es!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!feed.news.tiscali.de!uio.no!newsfeed.kolumbus.fi!not-for-mail From: Henriette Kress Newsgroups: alt.folklore.herbs,alt.answers,news.answers Subject: Medicinal herbFAQ Part 1/7 Followup-To: alt.folklore.herbs Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 13:28:05 +0300 Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapiaa Lines: 1032 Approved: news-answers-request@MIT.EDU Expires: Sun, 30 May 2004 23:59:00 GMT Message-ID: Reply-To: hetta @ spamcop.net (no blanks) NNTP-Posting-Host: a80-186-14-229.elisa-laajakaista.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: phys-news1.kolumbus.fi 1082888679 9475 80.186.14.229 (25 Apr 2004 10:24:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@kolumbus.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 10:24:39 +0000 (UTC) Summary: What you have always wanted to know (and ask on a newsgroup)(more often than once a month) about medicinal herbs X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Xref: senator-bedfellow.mit.edu alt.folklore.herbs:97201 alt.answers:72622 news.answers:270422 Archive-name: medicinal-herbs/part1 Posting-Frequency: monthly (on or about 20th) Last-modified: 25Apr03 Version: 1.38j URL: http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/medi-cont.html ---------------------------------------------- Contents ---------------------------------------------- All you ever wanted to know - and ask on a newsgroup - more often than once a month - about medicinal herbs. A FAQ for alt.folklore.herbs and the medicinal herblist. Version 1.38g. Contents * 1 Introduction o 1.1 Contributors o 1.2 Wishlist * 2 Single herbs o 2.1 Valeriana + 2.1.1 Valium is not derived from Valerian o 2.2 Yohimbe + 2.2.1 Yohimbe is a MAO inhibitor, yohimbine isn't o 2.3 Absinthe FAQ pointer + 2.3.1 More on Absinthe o 2.4 St. John's Wort (Hypericum) + 2.4.1 SJW and photosensitivity + 2.4.2 SJW and MAO inhibition + 2.4.3 About standardized hypericin content in SJW o 2.5 Ginseng o 2.6 Stevia Leaf - Too Good To Be Legal? + 2.6.1 Changed legal status of Stevia Leaf o 2.7 Poison Ivy / Oak / Sumac + 2.7.1 How to recognize PI/PS/PO + 2.7.2 How to avoid the rash + 2.7.3 Why does it give you a rash? / Spreading the oil about + 2.7.4 What helps + 2.7.5 Jewelweed, Impatiens + 2.7.6 How to get rid of poison ivy in your yard o 2.8 Echinacea + 2.8.1 Using Echinacea + 2.8.2 Echinacea - poaching and extinction o 2.9 Feverfew and migraine o 2.10 Kava kava o 2.11 Pau d'arco - updated 25Apr04 o 2.12 Wild yam and contraception + 2.12.1 Edible vs. true yam + 2.12.2 Wild yam cream and natural progesterone o 2.13 Red raspberry and pregnancy o 2.14 Green tea and caffeine o 2.15 Comfrey hepatotoxicity + 2.15.1 Hepatotoxicity update o 2.16 Pennyroyal o 2.17 Cat's Claw o 2.18 Golden Seal appeal - and Goldthread too o 2.19 Ma Huang or Ephedra sinensis o 2.20 Skullcap and Teucrium adulteration o 2.21 Mellow mallows o 2.22 Not an herb, but: Melatonin * 3 Herbs for specific things o 3.1 Herbs for mosquitoes and other bothersome bugs + 3.1.1 Repelling them + 3.1.2 And now you're bitten... o 3.2 Herbs for migraines o 3.3 Herbs for vivid dreams o 3.4 Herbs and weight loss o 3.5 Herbs to make you sleep + 3.5.1 Insomnia therapeutics o 3.6 Aphrodisiacs o 3.7 Herbal Abortives and Birth Control + 3.7.1 Herbal Abortives and Common Sense o 3.8 Herbs and female infertility o 3.9 Herbs, ADD, and replacing Ritalin o 3.10 Herbs for Sunburn o 3.11 The gall bladder flush o 3.12 Herbs for cough o 3.13 Herbs for constipation * 4 Processing herbs o 4.1 Making essential oil o 4.2 Pointer to the How-to of Tinctures o 4.3 Herbal oils o 4.4 Balms and liniments * 5 General Info o 5.1 Introduction to side effects, safety and toxicity of medicinal herbs + 5.1.1 Medicinal plant actions cannot be reduced to the effects of their isolated 'active constituents' + 5.1.2 Medicinal herbs act 'multi-systemically' + 5.1.3 Herbs act on the healing processes in the body + 5.1.4 Herbs act multi-dimensionally + 5.1.5 Side effects vs. contraindications + 5.1.6 Safety and toxicity of herbal medicines + 5.1.7 Pregnancy + 5.1.8 Understanding toxicity research - politics and ideology + 5.1.9 Further reading o 5.2 Wildcrafting Ethics and similar things + 5.2.1 Wildcrafting checklist + 5.2.2 How do I find out about endangered plants (in the USA)? + 5.2.3 What plants shouldn't I pick? + 5.2.4 United Plant Savers o 5.3 Different schools of Herbal Healing + 5.3.1 Traditions in Western Herbal Medicine + 5.3.2 Ayurveda - an introduction + 5.3.3 Pointers to homeopathy sites etc. + 5.3.4 What is Traditional Chinese Medicine? + 5.3.5 Flower essences + 5.3.6 Aromatherapy intro o 5.4 The Ames Test o 5.5 Trying out the placebo effect o 5.6 How to find an herbalist / ND o 5.7 Politics and herbal medicine * 6 Information Sources o 6.1 Good books on herbal medicine + 6.1.1 Good books to get started with + 6.1.2 Specialty books: women's herbals, men's herbals etc. + 6.1.2.1 Going for broke (and I wish you luck) + 6.1.3 In-depth books, by organ system + 6.1.4 Chinese herbs, or TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) o 6.2 Good books for further studies o 6.3 Good periodicals + 6.3.1 For enthusiasts (emphasis on color pictures) + 6.3.2 For professional herbalists (emphasis on case studies) + 6.3.3 For universities (emphasis on scientific studies) o 6.4 Online commercial databases + 6.4.1 Napralert + 6.4.2 Medline + 6.4.3 Ingenta + 6.4.4 IBIDS o 6.5 Herb programs + 6.5.3 Demo or shareware herb programs + 6.5.4 Commercial herb programs o 6.6 Other online information sources + 6.6.1 FTP + 6.6.2 WWW o 6.7 Pointers to related documents + 6.7.1 Plants by Mail FAQ pointer + 6.7.2 Carpal Tunnel Syndrome WWW page pointer + 6.7.3 Hint for Kombucha posters + 6.7.4 Hint for Essiac posters + 6.7.5 Thinking of growing herbs for sale? + 6.7.6 Saw Palmetto and Prostata problems: Newsgroup/FAQ pointer + 6.7.7 Natural high FAQ pointer + 6.7.8 Natural vision FAQ pointer + 6.7.9 Smoking herbs document pointer + 6.7.10 Pointer to herbal-medical glossary + 6.7.11 Menopausal discomforts * 7 Schools etc. o 7.1 Some hands-on schools I know of in the US o 7.2 Some hands-on schools in Canada o 7.3 Some correspondence courses I know of in the US o 7.4 Some schools and correspondence courses elsewhere o 7.5 About correspondence schools, and licensing of herbalists o 7.6 Accreditation of ND schools and ND licensing in the US * 8 Related forums o 8.1 Mailing lists (= email) + 8.1.1 The Medicinal Herblist + 8.1.2 The Aromatherapy List + 8.1.3 The Kombucha List + 8.1.4 The Paracelsus List + 8.1.5 The Homeopathy List + 8.1.7 The Culinary Herblist + 8.1.9 The Wellpet List + 8.1.10 The Holisticat List + 8.1.12 The Apothecary List + 8.1.13 The HolisticBird List + 8.1.14 The Toiletries List + 8.1.16 The Aboutherbs List + 8.1.17 The UK Herbal List + 8.1.18 The Herbgardening List + 8.1.19 The Forageahead List + 8.1.20 The HolisticPet List o 8.2 Newsgroups o 8.4 Newsgroup (and mailing list) netiquette o 8.5 Dealing with spam and trolls ---------------------------------------------- 1 Introduction ---------------------------------------------- Hi all, This is the (umpth + n) edition of the FAQ / Resource list. (I've lost track). Feel free to send additions, corrections and comments. hetta . spamcop.net (no blanks) ---------------------------------------------- 1.1 Contributors ---------------------------------------------- FAQ Keeper: Henriette Kress, hetta . spamcop.net (no blanks) Contributors so far (listed alphabetically): ; ) Aine Maclir, Al Czap, Alex Standefer, amethyst, Andy + Sharon, Anita Hales , August West, bahwi.technologist.com, Barbara Heller, Callie, Carolyn Mohney, Cathy Weigl, Christopher Hedley, Clarke Hoover, Colette Gardiner, Coyote Osborne, Craige Roberts, Dale Kemery, David Powner, Dennis McClain-Furmanski, Dorene Petersen, Duane Weed, Elizabeth Perdomo, Elizabeth Toews, Eric Yarnell, Eugenia Provence, George M. Carter, Gerry Creager, Gloria Mercado-Martin, Howie Brounstein, Jack Campin, James Mally, N.D., Jim Bardon, J. Mark Taylor, Jonathan Treasure, Julia Moravcsik, JunieWrite.aol.com, Kathjokl, Kay Klier, Kenneth R. Robertson, Kevin Jones, Kris Gammon, Lawrence London, Lupo LeBoucher, Marcia Elston, Mark D. Gold, Mary Jo Gilsdorf, Maven, Michael Moore, Michael M. Zanoni, Miriam Kresh, Noel Gilmore, Patricia Harper, Paul Bergner, Paul Iannone, Penny, Peggy Wilbur, Peter&Janine, Peter Gail, Peter L. Schuerman, P. Mick Richardson, Rene Burrough, Rob McCaleb, Robert Gault, Robert Hensley, Robyn Klein, Ron Rushing, Roy Collins, Roy Upton, Rusty Taylor, Samson, Sara Klein Ridgley, PhD, Satin, Shannon Brophy, Sharon Rust, skeevers.netcom.com, Stuart Cullen, Suzanne E. Sky, Thimbleberry, Thomas Mueller, Tim Birdsall, Tim Keenan, Todd Caldecott, vicki, urban shaman ---------------------------------------------- 1.2 Wishlist ---------------------------------------------- Actually there isn't much important stuff missing anymore. The following topics are currently up for grabs: Wanted for chapter 2 (Single herbs): * Ginkgo Wanted for chapter 3 (Herbs for specific things): * Herbs for flu Wanted in addition: * Anything else you see posted every so often, but that I haven't included in the FAQ or on the wishlist. If you wish to contribute send me a short note; I'll keep track of who promised to do what, and if you can't find the time to put something together in two months your topic will be up for grabs again. Your contribution can be as long as you wish to make it; but it should be GOOD (like all the entries in this FAQ - thanks, folks). Also, if you really know what you are talking about I'd like to hear your comments on any entry in this FAQ. (Strange - all I ever get is 'Good Show. Keep it up.', but no-one ever tells me if they found any errors.) ---------------------------------------------- 2 Single Herbs ---------------------------------------------- 2.1 Valeriana ---------------------------------------------- Also see 3.5, Herbs to make you sleep. ---------------------------------------------- > Valeriana - uses? pros? cons? safety? dosage? From Todd Caldecott (toddius.netidea.com): Valerian is an excellent herb to use, in combination with other herbs, or used alone. The active constituents are the volatile oil (isovalerianic/enic acid) and valepotriates. Valerian depresses the central nervous system, similar to GABA (which occurs naturally in the brain and inhibits nerve impulse transmission.) There are no cons to taking valerian other than if you use it other than in a capsule it can smell up your house as a tea. Or if you have cats they may rub up and down your leg (they like it, similar to catnip) while you are drinking you tea, causing you to stumble and fall, spilling hot liquid all over yourself. For Valerian to be effective you must take it in sufficient quantities to work e.g. 1-2 tsp. of the tincture (alcohol extract) before bed, or 6-10 capsules of the dried plant. Onset is typically 1 hour. You may awaken a little muddleheaded, which is quickly relieved as soon as you move about. For a daily dose, 5 ml (1 tsp.) of the tincture 3 times a day between meals is the standard dose. About 20% of the population respond to Valerian as a stimulant, so if you take it and have insomnia or buzzed out, try hops, chamomile, passionflower, skullcap or Avena, which are all excellent herbs to relieve stress, anxiety and insomnia. ---------------------------------------------- 2.1.1 Valium is not derived from Valerian ---------------------------------------------- >Valerian is the parent of Valium isn't it? From Michael Moore (hrbmoore.rt66.com): There is absolutely NO connection between Valerian and Valium...believe me...just an accident of circumstance...Valeriana is a classic Roman Latin reference...Valium is an invented trade name...a copycat name from a pharmaceutical manufacturer to aid in making a conscious or unconscious connection with "Librium", a successful tranq whose market Valium was originally aimed at. Valerian HAS had some anecdotal use for ADD...the only problem is that extended use of enough Valerian to have value has ALSO brought about emotional lability in some folks. Using herbs as drug substitutes has value, but with Valerian having SO many different physiologic effects (depressant for CNS, stimulant to gastric, pulmonary and cardiovascular functions) it is a botanical that is best used within a constitutional framework...i.e. evaluating the PERSON metabolically to find out if the profile of effects from Valerian is complementary or antagonistic. ---------------------------------------------- From Colette Gardiner coletteg.efn.org: Re the name Valium and its relation to the name Librium. For some weird reason I actually remember reading an article in the newspaper on the new drug Valium. There was a quote from the inventor basically saying he had been trying to invent something similar to Librium only better. He went on for a paragraph or so about comparing the various sensations and effects, and concluded that yes Valium was "nicer". ---------------------------------------------- 2.2 Yohimbe ---------------------------------------------- From _urban shaman_, reached over Carras.aol.com: If people wanted to obtain a legal hyperalert sexually aroused state, they might find some yohimbe (Corynanthe yohimbe, Pausinystalia yohimbe) and brew it up by simmering a quart of water with 1 gm of ascorbic acid to 5 gm yohimbe until there's only 50% of the original water volume left. Add a lot of sugar afterward. Mixes synergistically with sassafras and Pau d'arco if you're adventurous and would like to cure your ills and get a hard-on at the same time. However, most people who have tried yohimbe have been disappointed. They didn't know you need to brew it 20 to 30 minutes at approx. 200x with an organic acid to release the alkaloid components. The active alkaloid, yohimbine bitartrate, is the component of the only allopathic medicines known to cause erection in impotent males and approaches the concept of an aphrodisiac. Yohimbine bitartrate particularly affects nerves and changes blood flow regulators in the genital area. The medical texts never mention that it does the same thing to women, showing a typical disregard for female erection. In the best case scenario this decoction will cause many users to get a melting spinal sensation and extreme epidermal sensitivity with high interpersonal perception and melding. It can be extremely sexually arousing...or at least all the signs and signals are there... And the worst case scenario for yohimbe? - well, you have to remember ethnographic reports documenting cases of some African tribes drinking it in copious quantities in pre-raid rituals to suppress fear and jack up physical aggressiveness. After getting to the point where they were bouncing up and down so much they looked like a mosh pit full of spears, they'd run 10 miles over to the next village and kill off most of the neighboring tribe, stopping only to rape the dogs, cattle, women, children, surviving males, dead bodies, water jugs and tree holes before running back home. I'm not sure this is something we need downtown on Friday night. Yohimbe Caution: it will keep both partners up all night. In the male of the species this becomes really inconvenient and irritating as after a few hours an erection becomes more of a liability than an asset - especially as this aspect continues long past the point - as long as 8 hours - where you'd like to go to sleep and there's this turgid log attached to you that won't go away and is just beginning to ache. Note on the Caution: A warm bath can help with the log-on problem, as can gentle massage. However this should be avoided for at least four hours after ingestion because of the effect of raised body temperature on metabolism of the alkaloid - i.e., heat could intensify the stimulant effects. Females are not exempt from this - it has the same effect on them, although it is easier to sleep on. A possible downside of this erectile effect in high doses is the danger of blood vessel damage and gangrene in the penis resulting from the localized poor circulation condition known as penile erection. ---------------------------------------------- More from _urban shaman_ on the subject: There are a number of caveats re yohimbe - it shouldn't be taken with MAO inhibitors or by persons with high blood pressure, diabetes, glaucoma, or a history of mental disturbance, especially including bipolar disorder. A good dose prepared using methods as I described can have profound psychological effects - enough so that 'set' and 'setting' can become issues if the concentration/quantity is sufficient. This condition can easily be entered into by simply acquiring relatively recently gathered/dried/imported specimens of the herb and using enough of it. Botanicals are very wiggly in the potency dept. - a primary breakdown in the process occurs when practitioners have never seen a 'good' specimen of the herb in question. There are no low cost analytical methods for determining the active compound density of herbal materials gathered in the wild. It totally depends on recognition by experts - and sometimes even the best of them may have to compromise, as there just may not be any high quality material to be had. ---------------------------------------------- Still more from _urban shaman_ on the subject: The "approved" alkaloid is yohimbine hydrochloride. Herbal Yohimbe extracts are sold by a number of health food companies including I believe Michaels and Herb Pharm. Yohimbe bark and powder may be available from "...of the Jungle" in Sebastopol CA. Please remember, if you're considering making extracts - Yohimbe is strongly synergized by alcohol. It is also easily extracted in alcohol/water - but the alcohol should be evaporated off after extraction unless you're looking for a real wow-wow effect. There could be high blood pressure complications from ingesting strong concentrations of Yohimbe. Dayton Laboratories sells the prescription preparation Dayto Himbin in tablet and liquid form. The tablets contain about 5.5 mg hydrochloride. The liquid contains phenylalanine as well and should be used with caution. Total daily doses run on average between 20-30 mg of the hydrochloride. The medical action is to increase penile blood inflow and decrease penile blood outflow. The action is cited as having an erectile function without increase in libido. I have not taken the hydrochloride so don't speak from direct experience. Although the caveats state that Yohimbine exerts no cardiac stimulation, it is later noted that Yohimbine is an unpredictable CNS stimulant and may cause elevated blood pressure and cardiac rates. From this information I hazard we are to take it that in the same manner that yohimbine causes erections without raising libido, it also causes cardiac rate increase without stimulating the heart? (I love the guys who write this hype - they're so wise) Buried deep in the caveats for the Dayto Himbin product is language saying you should not give this to people with a history of mental instability, and that it causes recipients to express a range of curious behaviors at doses lower than those required to cause erection - among which are tremors, irritation, dizziness, flushing (note that niacin causes a body flush at sites almost identical to those of a sexual flush). Horse breeders administer large doses of niacin to both parties of a horse breeding "to get them in the mood". I would not suggest, however, that taking niacin along with yohimbe would have a parallel effect. If you don't know what a "sexual flush" is - take 200 mg of niacin and stand naked in front of a 3 panel mirror and watch your face, neck, "loins", and chest. ---------------------------------------------- From Henriette: If you have problems keeping it up, or are too dry, you might want to start with these: * reduce your stress * sleep enough and regularly * change your contraceptive pills (if applicable) * check your medication(s) for side effects (there's often surprises in the fine print) * eat your vitamins * if your partner's idea of foreplay is "Brace yerself, Sheila!" then you might benefit from some helpful books, imaginative games, or even from some softporn magazines. If all that is OK, there are some herbs which remedy imbalances or work as aphrodisiacs, that aren't as quirky as yohimbe: Try muira puama (Ptychopetalum), cotton root bark (Gossypium), or damiana (Turnera). A nice wine will relax both partners - after you've tried and had problems there's psychological barriers, too, so you do need to relax. A romantic circumstance usually helps, too. ---------------------------------------------- 2.2.1 Yohimbe is a MAO inhibitor, yohimbine isn't ---------------------------------------------- From Michael Moore: The alkaloid yohimbine is NOT an MAO inhibitor. The herb yohimbe IS. The whole plant is potentially so evil and insidious BECAUSE it's complex chemistry contains both adrenergics AND cholinergics...with effects that substantially mimic both sympathetic adrenergic, sympathetic cholinergic AND parasympathetic neuroreceptors all at the same time. It contains both yohimbine alkaloid groups (stimulating and hypertensive) and several potent reserpinoid (Rauwolfia) alkaloids (tranquilizing and hypotensive) ...a warlock's brew. Consistent use will, because of it's wildly opposite effects, find and widen metabolic chinks in almost ANYBODY. ---------------------------------------------- 2.3 Absinthe FAQ pointer ---------------------------------------------- If you really are serious about absinthe go get the FAQ from http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/absinthe/absinthe_faq.shtml I put this on top of the absinthe entry of this FAQ long ago: "Be warned - thujone IS dangerous, no matter what that FAQ says." This sparked some debate, which follows. But first, the La Fee Verte folks have made a very good absinthe FAQ: http://www.feeverte.net/faq.html - they also debunk the thujone danger. ---------------------------------------------- 2.3.1 More on Absinthe ---------------------------------------------- Dale Kemery wrote >I've been puzzled by absinthe for a long time. My recent reading has only intensified my curiosity. Is/was absinthe a true psychedelic beverage? Or what were/are its effects? For a long time I relied on the traditional reports about absinthe turning the brain to mush. >However, considering the hysterical disinformation campaign of Howard Anslinger aimed against marijuana, I've become very suspicious of any official strictures. What *is* the story about wormwood/absinthe? >Where can I learn more? ---------------------------------------------- From christopher.gn.apc.org (Christopher Hedley): This is from R.F.Weiss, Herbal Medicine. Weiss was an MD who taught herbal medicine in medical schools in Germany, so I suppose he counts as fairly impartial and reliable: "The plant contains 0.25-0.5% of a volatile oil the main constituent of which is thujone as well as bitters. The bitter action predominates. Wormwood is a typical aromatic bitter. The volatile oil is remarkably effective against worms. It is however toxic, whilst the bitter principle is largely non-toxic. Absinthe is made with wormwood oil, but in Germany its manufacture has been banned since 1923. The usual wormwood preparations contain so little of the oil that there is no risk of toxic effect. In some Mediterranean countries, where absinthe is consumed in large quantities, the seriously damaging effects on the central nervous system which have given the plant its bad name may develop and even lead to seizures. This shows that wormwood also has central stimulant properties that are no doubt of benefit in the small quantities normally used. Wormwood herb, for tea, 1 teaspoon to a glass of boiling water, leave to infuse for 10 minutes. Wormwood tincture. 10-20-30 drops three times daily in water." Comment; so the story is the same one as coffee, i.e. abuse/overuse of a perfectly good and useful herb. Wormwood is Artemisia absinthium, it is used a lot in aperitif wines and spirits in Europe, but only in small amounts or it dominates the taste. It is mostly used for intestinal parasites, 'weak digestion', liver and gall bladder troubles and as an emmenagogue. I always recommend it as a prophylactic for folk traveling to hot countries, 15 drops of tincture three times daily usually does the trick. The American spp of Artemisia, incl. sagebrush and mugwort, have pretty much the same properties. - No Artemisias should be taken during pregnancy. I trust this is useful info. Christopher Hedley ---------------------------------------------- From Howie Brounstein : >>Be warned - thujone IS dangerous, no matter what that FAQ says. The reason this line is attached to the Absinthe Pointer is because the Absinthe FAQ is slanted. Most sources say that long term use of Absinthe is dangerous and debilitating. I was under the impression that many people became addicted to it and suffered mental and physical deterioration, thus it became outlawed. I would stress that this is long term use. Wormwood, Artemisia absinthium is pretty nasty stuff, you would have to drink a lot of tea to feel its narcotic like effects, but by then you'd be retching from its foul taste. Of course, you could try to hide the flavor with other stuff ... thus Absinthe. Personally, I don't like it, don't feel its worth the havoc on your body for the effect. I like the smell of it, and would keep it around for that. The Absinthe FAQ, however, takes the point that it may be harmless, that the debility was caused by alcohol addiction, or Absinthe impurities, and a marihuana - like political scare tactics. I am not sure what to make of it, but the warning does remain that thujone is dangerous when taken in large enough quantities, and that the Absinthe of history did hurt a generation of people no matter what the specifics. >If thujone is so dangerous, what are we to make of it as the primary constituent of Artemisia? Are we endangering ourselves whenever we inhale it? Firstly, the chemistries of Artemisia absinthium and Mugwort, Artemisia vulgaris or douglasiana are different. Some of the contraindications are different; the uses are different; their histories are different. Also, it may be a bit premature to say that one chemical, thujone, is THE active ingredient in either. That would be a bit too reductionist for my tastes. We can't even assume that because a plant contains some small amount of a poison, that the plant is poisonous, or we'd have to give up onions, spinach, mustard. The difference between food and poison is often dosage; the difference between poison and medicine is dosage. So let's focus on thujone. A brief list of plants containing thujone includes: Salvia officinalis L. - Sage (Leaf) Salvia triloba L. - Greek Sage (Plant) Artemisia dracunculus L. - Tarragon (Shoot) Mentha x rotundifolia (L.) HUDSON - Applemint (Leaf) Pycnanthemum tenuifolium SCHRAD. - Slenderleaf Mountain Mint (Shoot) Mentha pulegium L. - European Pennyroyal (Plant) Thymus orospedanus H. del VILLAR - Orosped Thyme (Plant) Achillea millefolium L. - Yarrow (Plant) Capsicum frutescens L. - Cayenne (Fruit) Carum carvi L. - Caraway (Fruit) Glycyrrhiza glabra L. - Licorice (Root) Juniperus sabina L. - Sabine (Plant) Matricaria recutita L. - Annual Chamomile (Plant) Mentha arvensis L. - Cornmint (Plant) Sassafras albidum (NUTT.) NEES - Sassafras (Root) Satureja hortensis L. - Summer Savory (Plant) This list, and others like it is available free from the Phytochemical databases - http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/ . So as you can see, many plants that are very safe (in normal dosages) contain this chemical. So smell your Mugwort, drink Mugwort tea, smoke it, smear the juice all over your body on a vision-dream quest, just don't extract pure thujone from it and snort it. >Someone on another list suggested smoking Artemisia because there's a strong connection with marijuana --both affect the same (or similar) receptors in the brain, and are apparently similar botanically (I don't know what that means technically). Additionally, a book called *Absinthe, History in a Bottle* by Barnaby Conrad III mentions thujone-enol's structural similarity to THC. Smoking Artemisias? Hmm, for me Mugwort is a flavor, used in small amounts as not to be too overwhelming. Kind of mentholly. Or perhaps for it's dreaming effects. But once again folks are implying a generalization: This one constituent (or group of constituents) is shaped like THC, and perhaps affects the same receptor sites as THC, so it must make you feel like you smoked THC. Oops, flawed logic again. Just because the shape of two molecules are similar doesn't mean that they have similar biological effects. They might, but its not guaranteed. My take on this: Ingesting Mugwort, or any Artemisia I've tasted, does not make you feel like you've ingested Marihuana. So enjoy the smells, drown your concerns, and a happy, aromatic holiday season to all you netters out there. Howie Brounstein ---------------------------------------------- From Dale Kemery, DalePK.aol.com, to above: I thought you might be interested in more complete information about absinthe, wormwood and thujone, after our recent exchange on the subject. I've come across a comprehensive summary about it in Jonathan Ott's superb "Pharmacotheon." (Although using his name with any glowing adjective is redundant because everything I've seen of his is so complete, exhaustive and thoroughly researched and studied.) "Absinthe was prepared by distilling alcohol over mashed leaves of wormwood, and other common ingredients were Angelica root, Acorus calamus rhizome (which may contain the psychoactive asarones; ...), cinnamon, fennel seed, star anise (both of which contain anethole, another potentially psychoactive compound...) and other plants. The characteristic and much-desired green color of the liqueur, which was supposed to whiten when mixed with water, was sometimes artificially enhanced by addition of indigo and other plants, or toxic metal salts like copper sulfate and antimony chloride... He chronicles the history of the banning of absinthe and a recent renewal of interest in absinthe, then says: "It is commonly assumed that the thujones were the neurotoxic principles of absinthe, although alcohol also is a potent neurotoxin (absinthe contained from 68-85% alcohol) and significant quantities of copper and antimony salts used as adulterants (particularly in cheap imitation absinthe for the poorer classes) may have been present and responsible for the neurotoxicity...While large doses of injected thujones are unquestionably toxic, modern toxicological studies of thujones, in the quantities present in absinthe, without the copper and antimony adulterants, are needed before concluding that the neurotoxicity associated with absinthism was a consequence of thujone content. I suspect the copper and antimony salts, as well as the unusually high alcohol content had more to do with absinthe toxicity than the thujone content. Non-thujone essential oils commonly present in absinthe have also been shown to have convulsant properties and are probably neurotoxic." The obvious inference is that thujone is unlikely the culprit in "absinthism." And even though he acknowledges the toxicity of "large doses of injected thujones," the operative words are "large" and "injected." It may be assumed (without any evidence to support this statement) that swallowing thujone in some form (tea, for example) would subject it to the chemical rigors of digestion, a pathway that is much different from intravenous or even intramuscular injection. Whether the same can be said for, say, smoking a thujone-containing plant is another matter since inhalation effectuates a much more direct transfer into the blood without the intervention of hydrochloric acid, pepsin and other digestive enzymes. ---------------------------------------------- From christopher.gn.apc.org (Christopher Hedley): A note.. Sage (Salvia officinalis) essential oil is 30% thujone and good sage has up to 2.5% essential oil. Wormwood contains 1% essential oil, I don't have a figure on the % of thujone but if we assume it to be less than half then it is possible to consume more thujone in Sage tea than in Wormwood tea and no one has suggested that long term use of sage is toxic. Distilling alcohol over Wormwood would extract mostly the volatile oil. Weiss says that the pure volatile oil was also used in the making of absinthe - this is still an ingrained habit in food and drink manufacture and one that should be condemned. Flavouring with volatile oils is NOT the same as flavouring with plants. Thujone has been given bad press but I still don't think that consuming large amounts of volatile oil for long periods has anything to recommend it. Also the thujone has strong stimulating effects, noticeable when smoking wormwood - which as Howie says is nothing like smoking Mugwort. Presumably absinthe had the same degree of stimulation and thus people were encouraged to drink more and abuse it. The comparison between thujone and THC is an interesting example of just how far theory can lead people astray. Always try for yourself I say. ---------------------------------------------- From Howie Brounstein : > Also the thujone has strong stimulating effects, noticeable when smoking wormwood- which as Howie says is nothing like smoking Mugwort. Presumably absinthe had the same degree of stimulation and thus people were encouraged to drink more and abuse it. Hmmm. Did I say that. Oh yes, so I did. It is hard to put into words. Mugwort can be used like Wormwood for worms, warming, female reproductive system effects, and it has similar contra-indications. Yet wormwood has something else, a more overtly drugged feeling it produces that I have never experienced with other Artemisias. I don't know what chemical is responsible for it, it may be thujone unrelated, for all I know. But I know the feeling. ---------------------------------------------- From: "Rob Miedema" <8rm1.qlink.queensu.ca> Thujone does not in fact act like THC at all. That belief was founded on the observation that they have similar chemical structures, but was proven incorrect (Hold et al., 2000). Actually, it seems that thujone exacts its effects on GABA-A receptors in the brain. This is the same receptor that alcohol acts on, but the two chemicals have opposite effects. Therefore the balance between thujone and ethanol in the absinthe is critical. Thujone, or rather it's active metabolites (7-hydroxy-alpha-thujone, alpha-thujone), and other products in wormwood that steep into absinthe (e.g. camphor) are actually convulsants. They inhibit the brains inhibitory system causing overexcitation. Death in animals as large as cats and rabbits results from moderate doses and there are documented cases of death in humans (Burkhard et al., 1999). One person's statement that oral ingestion is not injection so it is probably fine is false, the thujone actually needs to be metabolized by the liver to break it down into its active components. ---------------------------------------------- If you still want to try it here's one how-to, and a vivid description of the experience: ---------------------------------------------- >Making Absinthe is extremely easy, as long as you don't require the full alcoholic content. Just take Pernod, pour off about an ounce and cram wormwood herb in the top. Let it set for a week or two. That's it. Pernod is Absinthe without the wormwood and about half the alcohol. From ix.io.com (Lupo LeBoucher): This is unlikely to absorb much thujone; for a really horrible and ridiculously potent absinthe, buy a fifth of 100 proof vodka, pour it over an ounce of wormwood, and a quarter ounce of anise seeds, and let it steep for a month or two. After straining the liquid, the resulting decoction will be a horrible looking liquid with approximately the color and psychoactivity of 1970s gasoline, though gasoline tastes better (long story). To ingest (one cannot drink it), pour over a lump of sugar into a strong mixture of water & lemon juice, hold nose, and swallow before you taste the bitter horror. Be sure to do this in the vicinity of a sink with running water; one may need to wash the awful stuff down or provide your absinthe with a convenient place to rest should it decide to come up for a breather. Effects reportedly include, audio-visual hallucinations similar to the opiates, with a bit o nitrous; numb mucus membranes; dizziness, nausea, picking up the ugliest member of the opposite sex one has ever encountered and vomiting green bile over oneself while asleep (experts disagree whether or not the latter was an effect of the previous, rather than an effect of the thujone - ask Heysoos, I didn't do it). The above recipe was taken from a book called "The Magical and Ritual Uses of Herbs" (by Richard Allen Miller) which described Absinthe as "an excellent after-dinner liqueur" which makes one wonder what types of dinners Mr. Miller has at his place. ---------------------------------------------- From ix.io.com (Lupo LeBoucher): >Anise has no effect; the active ingredients in absinthe are just wormwood and alcohol. The anise went in the mix in a misguided attempt to kill some of the bitter flavor (since it was what the standard recipes used). All I succeeded in doing was killing some of the wormwood "flavor" *retch* upon burping. >The plain wormwood probably could be swallowed as a tea followed by the booze as a chaser. The plain infusion used to be prescribed as a "tonic". I don't know if it would have the same effect; the essential oils in the wormwood, which contain the active ingredients, are not likely to be water soluble. ---------------------------------------------- From stygianv.shadow.net (Coyote Osborne): > Anise has no effect; the active ingredients in absinthe are just wormwood and alcohol. Ah, but anise does have an important effect here. It keeps the wormwood/absinthe from irritating your stomach so much. I would recommend fennel and perhaps peppermint or basil for this also. > The plain wormwood probably could be swallowed as a tea followed by the booze as a chaser. The plain infusion used to be pre-scribed as a "tonic". Actually, most of the things in wormwood are damaged or destroyed if added to hot water. Warming it gently (like brandy) works, but not making an infusion with water that is boiling. I suspect that a good rule of thumb is that if it is hot enough to destroy alcohol, it is also hot enough to make the wormwood lose it's efficacy. >From reading that book or other, somehow I got the idea to make absinthe by mixing a whole ounce of wormwood in a half fifth of whiskey and forgetting about it for a few months. That shit is impossibly bitter. It's one of the most bitter herbal substances you know. Yes. Not even the worms like it. : ) It does have some interesting properties, though, and prepared properly can even taste... well I won't say nice... but it will taste such a way that it is desirable. Acquired taste perhaps? Good for the sensually indulgent? Weird? ---------------------------------------------- From Stuart Cullen Just a little extra info from an experienced Absinthe drinker. I have drunk three different types of absinthe (two Portugese [50% and 58% alcohol by volume] and One Czech [55% by volume]) on innumerable occasions -- usually 4+ European shots a night. In Portugal, to get its most extreme effect I was told to add sugar to the shot, light the absinthe, blow it out, drink it through a straw, cup my hand over the glass and inhale as much of the fumes as I could. I am sure this would be potent with any alcoholic drink. I have drunk stronger vodka [63% by volume] yet it has never had the effect of absinthe. I have experienced one 'hallucination' -- I was once positively sure that a girl was dancing beside me for several minutes when there was no-one there. I have experienced numerous total blackouts from its usage. I am not an expert on herbs or a student of any related subject but absinth/e is a drug NOT an alcoholic drink (believe me). ---------------------------------------------- An endnote from Henriette: I'm told the "absinthe" recipes given above are completely off the wall. I'll believe that, because nobody in their right mind would ever call tincture, tea or even leaf of wormwood straight off the plant palatable. Some say that wormwood has a nice "floral" scent. Yech, says I, because to me that "floral scent" is a thoroughly nauseating smell, which carries over into the taste if ingested. Urgh. Wormwood is intensely bitter. Couple that bitterness with the revolting taste and you're set for something fit to give to your worst enemies, but not fit to serve at table. On that note, I made about half a liter of wormwood tincture (1:5 45 %) years ago. Anybody over 18 (can't have kids getting drunk on this stuff) who drinks 1/2 dl (2 ounces) of that tincture in front of me (outdoors, please, with convenient bushes nearby) can have the whole bottle -- if they still want it after ingesting their half deciliter. ---------------------------------------------- 2.4 St. John's Wort (Hypericum) (SJW) ---------------------------------------------- 2.4.1 St. John's Wort (Hypericum) and photosensitivity ---------------------------------------------- Here's the question (on the herblist (see 8.1.1 below) in November 1994): >As to Hypericum perforatum (St. John's Wort) causing photosensitivity in humans, I have been unable to find a single study that verifies this in vivo. Lots of research on the effects of hypericin on cattle and insects, but humans? This may be an example of assumptive jumping from mammalian lab results to humans. Anyone know a study that indicates photosensitivity in humans due to Hypericum? ---------------------------------------------- The discussion can be found here: http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed/archives/Best/1994/sjw-photosens.html ---------------------------------------------- Two years after above was included in the FAQ: In recent discussions on a high-quality herbal mailing list the conclusion was that yes, some very few people can have problems with photosensitivity and Hypericum; that it might manifest a tad more often with topical application of oil on skin which is exposed to sunlight; but that actually, in very sensitive people, it might be enough to just take sensible amounts of tincture internally for photosensitivity to appear (even without synergy with meds). ---------------------------------------------- 2.4.2 St. John's Wort (Hypericum) and MAO inhibition ---------------------------------------------- >>St John's Wort does in fact work like an MAO inhibitor and likewise causes the same dangerous side-effects. >That's the wrong term. They're not "side effects"; they're food or drug interactions. But if SJW is an MAO-inhibitor then they're certainly "dangerous". From smisch.tiac.net (Samson): Yes, they would be if SJW really _were_ a MAOI. But it's not. That was a theory that was floating around for a while without much support, and it has since been disproven. See eg. * Thiede HM; Walper A: Inhibition of MAO and COMT by Hypericum extracts and hypericin. J Geriatr Psychiatry Neurol, 7 Suppl 1:1994 Oct, S54-6 * Bladt S; Wagner H: Inhibition of MAO by fractions and constituents of Hypericum extract. J Geriatr Psychiatry Neurol, 7 Suppl 1:1994 Oct, S57-9 "Using pure hypericin as well as in all ex vivo experiments, no relevant inhibiting effects could be shown. From the results it can be concluded that the clinically proven anti-depressive effect of Hypericum extract cannot be explained in terms of MAO inhibition." Hypericin does show some MAO-inhibition in vitro at _very_ high concentrations. At regular human doses, though, virtually nil. ---------------------------------------------- 2.4.3 About standardized hypericin content in St. John's Wort (Hypericum) ---------------------------------------------- On alt.folklore.herbs in Oct 97: >(somebody) wrote: >>I gathered my own SJW when it was flowering, (snip) (somebody else) replied: >You don't know how strong a dose you are receiving in your homemade tincture. St. John's Wort keeps the serotonin in your brain from breaking down so rapidly. This is called a selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitor (SSRI) and the level of serotonin in your brain goes up. This may be good for people who have low levels of serotonin such as depressives but it is not good for people with normal serotonin levels. I would stick to the companies who standardize their dose for 0.3% hypericin and only take the recommended dose. ---------------------------------------------- Then jmt.... (J. Mark Taylor) stepped in and replied to the recommendation to "stick to the companies who standardize their dose for 0.3% hypericin": ... I would ignore this advice. We don't buy carrots by beta-carotene content and we don't buy potatoes by carbohydrate ratings. Although neutraceutical interests may soon begin marketing things that way, they only take away from the fundamental nature of wholistic health. ---------------------------------------------- Comment from Henriette: This 'standardization' is just yet another marketing trick to me. Get suppliers you trust, know your tinctures, and don't fall for scams, not even 'scientifically proven' ones. Pure hypericin -has- been shown to produce side effects in almost all laboratory tests, while side effects with the whole plant extract (Hypericum tincture, made solely with Hypericum flowering tops and alcohol) are exceedingly rare. However, after the herb made it big in the US (in 1996? 1997 ?), tens of thousands of people have been taking it, daily, in larger or smaller quantities (they don't always remember or even know that more is not always better); as tinctures, "standardized extracts", capsules, and you-name-its. If -you- experience side effects, you're just one of the unhappy few "exceedingly rare" cases. If that's the case use your common sense and _stop_ taking it. ---------------------------------------------- End of part 1 of 7 ---------------------------------------------- -- Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed