I Want A Loph Williamsii
|Posted by: maryxmas Mar 24 03, 01:10 AM GMT|
| been looking to get one but dont know where to get one.. dont want it for any entho reasons, just to and to my huge cacti collection. it would be a nice addition. anyone know anyone in canada that would pick one up for me and ship it to me for prints or some green backs.
|Posted by: Voodoo Mar 24 03, 05:16 PM GMT|
|There are companies in Holland that will send them. Just search around a bit. Sorry I dont have the link.|
|Posted by: deckerd Mar 24 03, 08:56 PM GMT|
| Go to
to buy membership ($50) and in a week or so you get a packet with pretty postcards of peyote, a Declaration of Religious Use, a membership card, and religous pamplet mumbo jumbo. This will serve as your proof of religious intent, not legal immunity, concerning sacrimental usage. Even though you are merely growing it, not eating it, some affiliation needs to rectify you with a legal looking membership document. This
http://www.desjamaan.nl/en/ place, located in Amsterdam will ship to the US granted you fax them your certificate. You must view their non-US site for the peyote link. I personally ordered 4 1-2 year old plants from them recently. Prior to ordering I emailed them saying I'm of native american descent ::ahem cough bullshit cough:: and am a member of a peyote church asking if they would ship my order. Xoch, one of the owners, replied saying yes. They had me fax my Peyote Way Church documents to a different number than the one listed on the site, which turned out to be a voice line. My order got canceled by their shipping department, saying "NO PEYOTE TO THE US", so I asked Xoch what the problem was and he appologized saying he did receive my fax, and the order was then reactivated and shipped. In the end $50 for church membership + $105 for buttons = 4 graft scions for my pedros.
|Posted by: maryxmas Mar 25 03, 02:16 AM GMT|
| you basically pissed away 50 bucks. according to US law you have to have a certain percent ( a high percent) of native american in you to grow it legally and you have to be able to prove it. you will still get shit on if you get caught regardless of your lil paper. there are people out there that will ship to the us regardless of a certificate.
and 105 bucks for 4 buttons, you got pissed on there too. just found a cacti company in south africa that will ship me 2 year old buttons for 15 bucks a pop
also not a good idea to post a pic of a document with your full name on it. might as well just fax your drivers liscense to the DEA'
|Posted by: Teknos Mar 25 03, 03:01 AM GMT|
|xmas, do they ship to the US? also can you share the link??|
|Posted by: Fungusmaximus Mar 25 03, 03:25 AM GMT|
see, they are already on it.
|Posted by: Malformed Mar 25 03, 03:46 AM GMT|
| not saying this is all fact, double check if you doubt it.
U.S. v. Warner, 595 F.Supp. 595 (D.N.D. 1984),
where a couple of white people were arrested for using peyote during
a Native American Church ceremony. After a pre-trial motion to
dismiss on Free Exercise of Religion grounds, the court ruled that
the exemption only applied to members of the Native American Church.
The bylaws of the Church state that only Native Americans, of at
least one quarter Native American ancestry, may belong to the Church.
However, at trial, the jury could not see any reason for making such
a distinction, and the Warners were acquitted.
The second ruling was in Peyote Way Church of God v. Thornburgh, 922
F.2d 1210 (5th Cir. 1991). Peyote Way Church was formed by former
members of the Native American Church who did not agree with the
Native American ancestry requirement and wanted to accept all races
into the Church. In that case, the court ruled that the exemption
was based on the special political status of Native Americans, not on
the free exercise of religion, and that only Native Americans could
use peyote legally (the court didn't explain why they had to belong
to a church to get the exemption).
Two other courts have ruled that the exemption cannot be limited to
Native Americans. Kennedy v. Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous
Drugs, 459 F.2d 415 (9th Cir. 1972); and Native American Church of
New York v. United States, 468 F.Supp. 1247 (S.D.N.Y. 1979),
affirmed, 633 F.2d 205 (2nd Cir. 1980). When the exemption was
created in 1965, Congress attributed the exemption to a California
Supreme Court decision, People v. Woody, 394 P.2d 813 (Cal. 1964),
which held that the exemption was required because of the Free
Exercise of Religion Clause of the First Amendment. That same day,
the California Supreme Court ruled that the sacramental use of peyote
by nonmembers of the Native American Church was also constitutionally
protected. In re Grady, 394 P.2d 728 (Cal. 1964). Again, in 1978,
when Congress enacted the American Indian Religious Freedom Act, Pub.
L. 95-341, Aug. 11, 1978, 92 Stat. 469, Congress affirmed that the
peyote exemption was required by the First Amendment (no mention was
made of the unique political status of Native Americans). Indeed,
not all members of the Native American Church are non-citizens of the
United States, negating the theory that their status as non-citizens
is related to the exemption.
In 1990, the U.S. Supreme Court held that the peyote exemption was
not constitutionally required, only permissible. Employment Division
v. Smith, 494 U.S. 872, 110 S.Ct. 1595 (1990). However, that
decision was so repugnant, that it was explicitly rejected in
November of 1993 when Congress passed the Religious Freedom
Restoration Act, Pub. L. 103-141, Nov. 16, 1993, 107 Stat. 1488.
|Posted by: Malformed Mar 25 03, 03:50 AM GMT|
| Peyote And The Law
The Peyote Book, A study of Native Medicine, Sweetlight Books, ©G. Mount 1993.
We need spiritual freedom in America. The peyote religion has been a lifeline from the past for native people. I believe it can be a lifeline to the future for many others. But the truth is the Peyote Religion has been suppressed by laws which discriminate against followers according to their race, and by ideas which discredit the Good Medicine by classifying it as a dangerous drug.
In California, for example, the rights of Native Americans seem protected because of a favorable decision by the California Supreme Court in the 1964 "Woody Case." However the rights of non-Indian peyotists are ambiguous at best since their use of peyote is a felony under state law despite the fact that peyote proves to be spiritually nourishing and medically beneficial regardless of ethnic ancestry, and despite the alleged constitutional right to religious freedom for all Americans.
Three states have exempted peyote from "controlled substance" prohibitions, and do permit the "bona-fide" sacramental use of peyote by non-Indians who are members of an established church: these are New York, Arizona and New Mexico. The Federal District Court of New York decided in 1979 that "the use of peyote for sacramental purposes...is not to be restricted solely to the Native American Church." Thus a precedent has been clearly established, and under Arizona laws the Peyote Way Church of God was licensed as perhaps the first all-race organization with appropriate authority. A recent decision by the Supreme Court of the United States (1990) makes it clear that we do not have a constitutional right to use any controlled substance as a religious sacrament. Instead, each state has the right to pass laws which honor the peyote religion, or continue to suppress it. Apparently the First Amendment only applies to established religions.
The same Peyote Way Church which is legal in Arizona has encountered difficulties in Texas, where church members were arrested for harvesting medicine. Charges were dismissed, but the Church filed a counter-suit against Texas for discrimination, noting that members of the Native American Church were permitted to harvest and purchase peyote from local licensed dealers. This would seem to be a case of obvious racial and religious discrimination on the part of Texas, but in a decision that makes a mockery of American history, the Fifth Circuit Court declared that "Indian Nations were sovereign entities" with special rights to all of the peyote in the United States. Therefore members of the Peyote Way Church, with membership open to all people regardless of ethnic ancestry, could not pick or purchase peyote in Texas. I would think the previously unrecognized "Indian Nations" could now use the language of this decision to sue Texas for the return of their sovereign land and other natural resources. The American legislative and judicial system conveniently recognizes Sovereign Indian Nations only when that point of view perpetuates the empire.
If the state of Texas really cared about Indian rights, or preventing the depletion of the natural peyote gardens by non-Indian peyotists, it would encourage commercial cultivation of peyote and develop a peyote nature preserve in Starr County, which had a perpetual harvest plan for providing medicine to the Native American Church. This would put many south Texas ranchers back in business, after years of recession-economics. And perhaps the Native American Church might be more supportive of non-Indian rights, if the increasingly diminishing natural supply of peyote were not threatened by a growing demand.
—Guy Mount, Editor
|Posted by: Malformed Mar 25 03, 04:11 AM GMT|
| the percentage of native american you need to be to be a member of the native american church , is 25% as far as from what ive read.
id like to know how to prove my percentage
i would have to trace back both sides of my family.
i 'used' to have a family tree, which had all the names i would need.
i have native american in bothsides.
along with german in both sides.
and some misc that is either one side or the other.
if i had to guess , id say between 10 and 25%
ive never checked into it because i never had a reason.
but now i think im going to try to get the stuff sorted out.
i just dont know where to start.
|Posted by: deckerd Mar 25 03, 07:28 PM GMT|
| I'd only agree that my $50 was pissed away if it didn't also subtract from the cost of a spirit walk if I choose to journey to their ranch. Sjamaan was the only vendor I could find who would ship to the US at all. Your deal looks better, why don't you share it?
I could care less if the DEA is "on to me" for the drugs I don't have. I'm a small fish.
|Posted by: Malformed Mar 25 03, 07:55 PM GMT|
|a small fish in a big pond, doesnt mean there isnt a hook in front of you.|
|Posted by: deckerd Mar 25 03, 11:23 PM GMT|
|i think i hear knocking at my door...|
|Posted by: deckerd Mar 26 03, 01:24 AM GMT|
|Who will legally be able to eat peyote once native americans stop inbreeding? I'm disappointed by the strict prohibition opinions in the ruling body of the US. Cultural assimilation should be accepted and ceremonial plant use legalized.|
|Posted by: maryxmas Mar 26 03, 02:02 AM GMT|
| you should realize by now we are a country run by morons. they contradict themselves all the time and the only reason they made peyote illegal was at the time the only people who did it were the native americans so in an attempt to crush theyre cultural differences and try to get them to give up their heritage they made it illegal. honestly back then how many people do you think were out doing peyote? im guessing very few
|Posted by: Voodoo Mar 26 03, 05:59 PM GMT|
Iv never thought about that before. Id guess that you are right though.
|Posted by: newman Mar 27 03, 06:51 PM GMT|
ahh good old canada.
(except are stance on the war)
|Posted by: maryxmas Apr 04 03, 04:25 PM GMT|
| yeah i need to find a greenhouse on the way though canada when im traveling. i cut across a 300 mile stretch, need to find a place that will hook me up with more. do you think they ID you when you buy them in canada to make sure you arent an american?
|Posted by: deckerd Apr 04 03, 06:23 PM GMT|
P.O. Box 27048
Barrie On, Canada
E-Maill: [email protected]
i did a little searching for you and this is the only place i've found in canada that has lophophora williamsii. most canadian cacti greenhouses seem to lack peyote. this is probablly because canada is so opposite the natural biome in which peyote thrives.
|Posted by: Yogi Apr 08 03, 11:41 PM GMT|
|I looked at the site. It would seem to me to be more economical to go to texas and try your hand at finding it in the wild, cut some tops at ground level bring them home to grow. You may run into border patrol problems but once you get home you won't be on a mailing list.|
|Posted by: Nanook Apr 09 03, 03:09 PM GMT|
|Hey Yogi, welcome aboard|
|Posted by: maryxmas Apr 09 03, 04:28 PM GMT|
| but then there is the matter of peyote is an endangered species and i wouldnt think of cutting one out of the wild. if you got busted with it the DEA would be the least of your problems.
|Posted by: Fungusmaximus Apr 09 03, 05:13 PM GMT|
|I doubt youll be able to locate any in the wild without an experienced guide who knows where to look. They are very few and far between. You'd be better of starting from seed. Acquiring seeds is a whole lot easier than getting actual cacti although still illegal.|
|Posted by: maryxmas Apr 09 03, 05:30 PM GMT|
| growing cacti from seed is hard to do. getting them to sprout isnt but keeping the balence between to moist ( causes rotting) and keeping them hydrated is a tight wire. cacti seedlings need more water then mature cacti but are also more suspeptable to rot, it takes along time to get a mature speciemen and they are very easy to kill their first year.
|Posted by: Yogi Apr 10 03, 11:08 AM GMT|
| Thanks for the welcome Nan! I found this site by accident but am in the right place!
Oh, as far as finding wild cactus. I've done it, if you know where to look it is possible. Its just that its generally on private land and close to te border and in *texas* , so there are hazards. I would think that in that situation the endangered species issue would be the least of your worries. It is scarce because of cattle grazing, plowing and general habitat destruction. If it is cut properly it will grow multiple tops and over the years actually expand that way. To start from seed is an excercise in patience. It will take many many years to grow.
|Posted by: Samsara May 31 03, 11:07 PM GMT|
|I ordered seeds once w/o a certificate from http://www.seedsdirect.to|
Also See: Sjamaan