Wild Bird Seed Questions


Nan's Nook : Archives : Misc Teks : Grain Teks : Grain Discussions    See:  WBS TEKS
Posted by: MycoGuy Mar 30 03, 02:03 AM GMT
First off, what brand is the best to purchase? What ingredients should be in the bird seed. My buddy was at the local kroger and found a couple of packages. The first was label Wild Bird Seed and contained: Milo, White Proso Millet, and sunflower seeds. The second was label Wild Bird Feed and contained: White Proso Millet, Sunflower chips, Red Proso Millet, and Canary Grass Seeds. Could my buddy use any of these in one pint jars as a substrate? Does anyone have any suggestions or comments about WBS substrates and teks.

Posted by: Mycota Mar 30 03, 02:11 AM GMT

The cheapest brand of untreated WBS you can find that contains primarily white & red millet.

Mycota wink.gif
.................................
Mycota's (6T) WBS Tek (Wild Bird Seed) Bulk Spawn Preparation Method.

WBS consists primarily of white millet. It is often a combination of white, red millet & milo, with a small percentage of sunflower seeds and sometimes tiny amounts of crushed corn. Some expensive brands are coated with a fungicide. For use as spawn material, treated WBS is not advisable.

You can find untreated WBS in 5 -10 & 20 pound bags, at low prices at most large chain grocery stores, or chain type pet supply stores. For instance, PetsMart has 40 pound bags of "Bird Basic" for around $9.

Simply place whatever quantity you intend to use in a plastic pot, tub or bucket. Bear in mind, dry seed will expand about 20 to 25% - after it absorbs its capacity of water. Add tap water & soak the seed overnight. A 8 to 12 hour soak is fine. Seed soaked longer will begin to ferment. But, is still usable after soaking 24 to 36 hours.

There is no need to remove any floating husks, or sunflower seeds. These add lignin (a good thing) & do not harbor any more possible contams than does the millet. It is all going to get thoroughly sterilized - anyway.

Once soaked, simply rinse the seed very thoroughly in a colander, or strainer. Then allow it to drain - WELL. As in 30 or more minutes. If it is drips - one drop. It is not drained - WELL.

Load pint or quart jars full, apply internal filter disk, material, polyfil or whatever method you use allow gas exchange through a or 3/8 inch hole in the lid. Screw lid on tight & back it off turn. Place a double layer of paper coffee filters over the lid & jar top, held down by a thick rubber band. Place the jars in the PC.

PC at 15 pounds for a full 60 minutes. 90 minutes is better, if you have the time. Allow the PC pressure to drop to zero & let it cool a bit. Open while still hot & remove jars. The paper coffee filters will dry almost instantly, when the PC is opened. Tighten lids (if necessary), shake jars to insure there are no clumps of seed inside. Place jars inside the oven on a rack, to cool, overnight. External coffee filters simply add another layer of protection to the jars content.

Once cooled to room temperature, store in a clean cardboard box - until used. Using them sooner than later is preferable. Note: This method was done in an All American PC. Some brands with a weighted pressure system require more internal water & it may be advisable to also cover the coffee filters with tin foil while PC'ing, so no excess boiling water gains entry into the jars. Simply remove the tinfoil when you remove the jars from the PC.

Posted by: MycoGuy Mar 30 03, 05:40 PM GMT
That method sound good to me. I went out and picked up some one pint jars today along with some birdseed. The brand was " SCOTT Deluxe Wild Bird Seed", the ingredients: Millet, Milo, Wheat, and Sunflower. Is this seed ok? How do I know if it is treated or not? It should say if it is on the bag, right? One more question, All I have to do is soak the seed for 8 hours, fill pint jars 2/3 of the way, PC, let cool and then I can innoculate them. I don't have to mix this stuff with anything? And do I not have to put a layer of dry verm. on top? Thanks for all the help [email protected]!

Posted by: Mycota Mar 30 03, 06:42 PM GMT
Soak overnight (until seed swells up as much as it will), rinse, drain, jar up, add tyvek filter, screw on lid (w/hole), cover with coffee filters, or tinfoil & PC.

Dat's all folks............. tongue.gif

Mycota

Posted by: Gweedo Mar 30 03, 09:32 PM GMT
Mycota: Curious as to how you inoc. your jars with the coffe filters in place?

Edit: Also is the jar 3/4 full and thats it?

Posted by: Mycota Mar 31 03, 04:29 AM GMT

Coffee filters just serve as an external dust cover over the lid & jar top, held down with a rubber band. To innoc, you simply remove them, then replace after innoc'ing.

My foaf doesn't innoc much, with a syringe. Mostly G2G transfers.

Hint: When innoc'ing with a syringe -- simply give the jar lid a 1/4 turn open, innoc & tighten it back.

Than moves the lid hole, to tyvek area not directly beneath the lid hole, when tightened back up, after innoc.

Jars should be 5/8ths to 3/4 full of WBS. If you get them to full, they are impossible to shake.

Also, note: My foaf uses two (2) .... 1/4 inch holes in jar lids. Reason being -- if you want to innoc with a syringe & are super noid - about contam's? You can inject in one hole & tape it over. Leaving the second hole for gas exchange.

Mycota


Posted by: MycoGuy Mar 31 03, 01:16 PM GMT
if you cover the holes with coffee filters, won't water get into the jars?

Posted by: Mycota Mar 31 03, 03:25 PM GMT
QUOTE (MycoGuy @ Mar 31 03, 06:16 PM GMT)
if you cover the holes with coffee filters, won't water get into the jars?

Tyvek under the lid, coffee filters over the lid. On quart jars, in a large PC, never had a problem with water getting in them. The is not a lot of water in the PC & it does not boil up that high. PC is a AA.

I suppose on a smaller PC, with 1/2 pints you could have that problem. Simply cover the coffee filters with tinfoil, if you are worried about it.

Mycota

Posted by: MycoGuy Mar 31 03, 10:20 PM GMT
I just got a P.C, when using it should I place something between the jars and the bottom of the p.c. so the heat is not in contact with the jars??

Posted by: Millet Mar 31 03, 10:49 PM GMT
You can put a handtowel in the bottom of the cooker and place the jars on top of it. be sure you dont run out of water during the cook, youll burn the hand towel and stink up your house, and ruin your spawn.

Posted by: Mycota Apr 01 03, 08:11 AM GMT
QUOTE (MycoGuy @ Apr 01 03, 03:20 AM GMT)
I just got a P.C, when using it should I place something between the jars and the bottom of the p.c. so the heat is not in contact with the jars??

Suggest you scrounge up something to use as a metal grate.

Idealy, jars should be off the bottom of the PC 1/2 or 5/8ths inch & out of any water.

If the bottoms are in water, it tends to cook that bottom seed & make it stick or clump.

Mycota

Posted by: OneDiaDem Apr 01 03, 08:22 AM GMT
LOL, holes are important. tongue.gif

Posted by: Mycota Apr 01 03, 08:38 AM GMT
QUOTE (OneDiaDem @ Apr 01 03, 01:22 PM GMT)
LOL, holes are important. tongue.gif

No holes in lid = no gas exchange = little or no colonization.

Mycota tongue.gif

Posted by: MickyWilliams Apr 01 03, 07:48 PM GMT
My bird seed has bird-kote in it. Ive always had good colonization when I use it but Ive always inoced with live mycelium.
Would it be a bad idea to inoc with spores? Will will they germinate in the bird-koted substrate?

Can you inoculate grains with dry spores? Will the moisture in the jar be enough to allow germination?

Thank you

Posted by: Mycota Apr 01 03, 10:43 PM GMT
IMHO, WBS without birdcoat is far better. Hell, you can buy 20 pound bags of generic WBS (without birdcoat) at almost any big chain grocery store, for cheap.

Never done WBS jars with dry spores. There might be enough moisture to germinate spores. But, it would take a lot longer & even w/o a syringe, I would scape into a sterile shot glass of water & let them hydrate overnight, then if you have to...... use an eyedropper, or pipette to get them into a WBS jar.

Mycota



Posted by: Smerd Apr 25 03, 06:14 PM GMT
I've sterilized WBS using Mycota's tek - was pretty straightforward and successful - but I'm thinking of using whole grain rye berries. I've read several teks; most seem to say that you mix a cup of grain and a cup of water, put it in a quart jar (i.e., without soaking overnight or boiling) that has a filter lid of some kind, and PC it for about an hour. Is it that easy? I'm surprised there's no need for soaking it or boiling it.

Also, the WBS colonized pretty well but I haven't seen impressive fruiting (it hasn't really been that long, though). Is WBS spawn about as good as rye berries? The WBS is pretty cheap.

Lemme know, por favor. Thanks.


Posted by: Teknos Apr 25 03, 06:27 PM GMT
When I used rye berries, I would cook them in water until I noticed them starting to burst. They will soak up water and become kinda soft. Its ok to see one or two busted ones cause they were prolly like that before you put them in the water, but once you start to nice more of them showing up they're done. Then jus strain for about a half hour or so. Even if they look kinda dry afterwards they'll be fine. biggrin.gif

Hope this helps...

Teknos peace.gif


Posted by: ShroomZilla Apr 25 03, 06:33 PM GMT
Hey dude.i seem to remember an EXCELLENT detailed post by mycota somewhere below this post. CHeck the threads here. i only remember
cause he detailed the process... I would find it for you, but this shrapnel in my leg from nam is bugging me, so yer on yer own,

Oh, it is fairly recent and shouldn't be to far.

cool.gif


Posted by: DirtyWOP Apr 25 03, 06:41 PM GMT
Before the rye-bashers get here,
I'm gonna jump in and say I like it!
It's up there in the favorite grain catagory.....
but you have to do it right.
simmering to hydrate is ok, but as teknos said, grains will burst, which can be bad (cause bacteria will set in easily)

You can soak rye just like you soak WBS, but rather than overnight, it's better to go for two or even 3 days in a sealed bucket........make em swell till they look like they are gonna pop.

Then load em.....
If innoculating with live myc, always add 3-5 mls of peroxide.
Don't forget your filter, and the rye will perform just as well as the wbs...


Posted by: Teknos Apr 25 03, 06:51 PM GMT
OH yea thats right. Buddy ran into problems with not letting his rye berries breath. But in my jars, I had pollyfill and they did great. But I'm a corn lovin guy... tongue.gif


Posted by: OZZ Apr 25 03, 06:54 PM GMT
My friend likes rye berries also but has recently had success with WBS on only four quarts that hes tried so far, however when he was using rye berries he used 1 cup rye to 3/4 cup water, soaked 12 hours, PC'd for 90 minutes and had success, usually however 5 quarts out of 7 would make it, 2 would contam to wet spot.

In his experience 1 cup water to 1 cup rye berries is way to much water and Im sure will lead to contamination. However they do say that different rye has different moisture content so who knows. But he guarentees that 1 full cup of water would lead to failure for him.


Posted by: DirtyWOP Apr 25 03, 06:58 PM GMT
just another tip:
popcorn makes good g2g masters as well
harder to contam

and since the kernals are so large,
it's best to use popcorn to transfer to millet so your spawn stretches farther

You can innoculate almost twice as much bulk substrate as a qt of popcorn, with a quart of millet, due to the size of the kernals....


Posted by: DirtyWOP Apr 25 03, 07:01 PM GMT
Thats true, you can't tell how much moisture is in the grain when you buy it, and it makes mixing with water and PCing troublesome........you get the moisture content perfect everytime when you soak.


Posted by: Roll's all day Apr 25 03, 08:07 PM GMT
Rye is about the only thing that my friend feels totally comfortable with. In fact he wont use anything else.He's tried soaking 12hour soaking 24 hours soaking 36 hours and soaking 48 hours the 1st thing he has noticed to really make a differance is ( as far as bacterial contams go ) how well you rinse it before loading it into jars, no rinse = more bacterial slime his suggestion is to rinse the f#@$K out of it. The second is the size jar you use if you use a quart you really need to cook the shit out of it as well as a quart can take the abuse much better than a pint jar or 1/2 pint jar really what happens is the bottom kernals get fried and usually end up bursting only to help with bacterial contams. His rule of thumb at least for the berries he buy's is 1and1/2 hours at 18-20 psi on quart jars ( only after a thourough rinse ) and anything smaller 1hour15minutes @ 15 psi does the trick ( only after a thoughrough rinse ). He rinses bfore soking after soaking and after simmering then into the jars they go but only after they are well drained! It's not as much trouble as I make it sound this is just a habbit that my friend has addapted to, thing is IT WORKS! He gets good yeilds and well Im happy with the potency of rye! hope Ive been of some help! Happy shroomn Im rolln tonght biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif


Posted by: dcyans Apr 25 03, 08:12 PM GMT
I had bought some rye (50lbs.) wink.gif and used over half and gave up the hobby for about 15yrs. Well when I started to use the rye I used the recommended 2/3-3/4 cup h2o for 1 cup berries(grain),I went with the 3/4 cup bc I knew the moisture content was practically nill wink.gif I PCed 24 jars for an hour, Cool huh? getting back in to one of my favorite hobbies!!! After the cool down in the hood I popped open the PC and began to take out the first jar and right away something did not feel(look) right it looked kinda dry and they always do on the top, I shook it and it still looked dry. To make a short story longer they were all that way and I wanted to use them but I knew it would be a waste in the long run so I put in another 1/4 cup in each jar and rePCed all of them this time they turned out perfect biggrin.gif Point is soaking works great 24hrs. great! wish I knew enough to soak. theres always variables and corn is perfect for G2G for bulk subs and WBS is good all around for g2g and as a subtrate. Rye is an excellent for both just a bit more finicky wink.gif biggrin.gif peace.gif


Posted by: Smerd Apr 25 03, 08:41 PM GMT
Hmmm... Thanks for the feedback. I'm gonna do something - I already bought the rye. Sounds good but a bit touchy. Soaking's no big deal, though.

Anyway, do you think rye is any more "fruitful" than WBS? The WBS was pretty easy to work with, using the tek Mycota posted a while back.


Posted by: Twista Apr 25 03, 11:57 PM GMT
i say go with wbs only because its cheaper and gets the job done pretty quickly. Anyone ever do any test for average colonization times? wbs vs. rye berries. I would imagine they'd be pretty close. That's the only reason I can think of to use rye berries over wbs- if its any quicker. My foaf has rye berries but is happy with the wbs. Once he runs out he will use his rye berries.


Posted by: Mycota Apr 26 03, 01:32 AM GMT
Just FYI, I like simple things. WBS is simple (soak, rinse, drain, load, add filter & PC).

But, if ya want? A combo of 25% rye & 75% WBS....... done by the WBS tek works great.

That is how My foaf used up a few extra 50 pound bags of rye.

Seed / grain mixed diversity creates a balance in moisture content, better than any single seed or grain -- alone.

Mycota


Posted by: DirtyWOP Apr 26 03, 07:14 AM GMT
Wish I could get 50 lb bags of rye.....


Posted by: dcyans Apr 26 03, 09:26 AM GMT
WBS is so cheap and available why not use it? as far as i can tell the shrooms aren't any bigger on rye and as far as # of flushes there close. I've used both and i'm impressed with WBS wink.gif peace.gif


Posted by: looselucy Apr 26 03, 09:40 AM GMT
One reason to use rye rather than WBS is in the case one wants to certify there product organic.....Otherwise I prefer WBS. I have found a good local source of "all natural" so pesticide free WBS and very few sunflower seeds, relitive to pennington. 20 cents a pound. The rye I can get, if I buy a couple thousand pounds is a little more than double that. go figure. the main thing is using grains as spawn into bulk substarate. rye forms good fruits....I actually have never tried casing WBS...I have a half gallon that has no home.....I may try.


Posted by: DirtyWOP Apr 27 03, 05:34 PM GMT
Your right......some large bags of WBS can be unpredictable.....I suggest finding a brand that works w/ few sunflower seeds and no chemicals and sticking with it

I like rye and birdseed about equally....I seem to get a better sucess rate w/ rye (for I get bacteria problems sometimes) , but I end up w/ more spawn in the end if I use birdseed.


 

Posted by: InfamousAppleJacks420 Aug 20 03, 04:16 PM GMT
Not too long ago I setup 3 jars with the substrate of birdseed (WBS tek). I let the birdseed soak over night and the morning, which was about 12 hours or so. After that, I drained the water from the seeds. All I did was just let the seeds sit out for some air for about 15 minutes or so. After that I checked them and they were wet, but not dripping. So knowing that, I PCed them for about 45 minutes or something. I know you're suppose to PC them for about an hour and half, but I didn't have the time. I innoculated the three jars anyways, but that's when it happened. My jars looked fine and start colonisation process at the bottom. The growth at the bottom was perfect! It gradually moved up, and that's where the problem was. It seemed to me that the seeds were brown? And in some parts black? They looked rather dry, but then again an inch and half down the seeds were perfect with excellent growth. Eh... of course the jars went bad, but I want to know why. Any suggestions? Any ideas? Was it that I didn't PC for the whole time? Anyone know?

-Apple
huh.gif


Posted by: maryxmas Aug 20 03, 04:33 PM GMT
you need to drain them well in a strainer before PCing and also PC longer

xmas


Posted by: brainbreath Aug 20 03, 04:40 PM GMT
yeah, I'd say it was probably that the PC time was too short. I always PC for at least 2 hours-up to 4 depending on how packed the pc is.


Posted by: jqpindahouse Aug 20 03, 04:50 PM GMT
First you should have rinsed the birdseed to get rid of the gun.

Second in my friends' experience, quart jars need to be PC'ed for at LEAST 90 minutes, she sometimes goes for 2 hours or more.

The black spots are black mold and you should pitch it .. be careful when dumping the birdseed though, you dont want the mold spores to get everywhere.

Take the jars outside into the grass and dump them out and let the birds have them, then spray lysol in and around your jars and then let them soak and wash them.


Posted by: InfamousAppleJacks420 Aug 20 03, 05:20 PM GMT
Aiite thanks guys. I'll try and do all of that next time. Peace!!

-Apple


Posted by: BoxedFarts Aug 20 03, 07:14 PM GMT
AppleJack:

What is your avatar? Im going crazy trying to figure it out wacko.gif


Posted by: brainbreath Aug 20 03, 07:27 PM GMT
does this help?
user posted image


Posted by: Zoom Aug 20 03, 10:10 PM GMT
I'ld say that is one of the most important and often forgotten steps in the procreation of fungi Brainbreath! laugh.gif wub.gif


Posted by: maryxmas Aug 20 03, 10:13 PM GMT
when you PC for 2 hours, how deep in water are your jars?


xmsa

 

Posted by: groingrinder Aug 21 03, 03:35 AM GMT
Switch to popcorn. Almost foolproof.


Posted by: brainbreath Aug 21 03, 09:16 AM GMT
QUOTE (Zoom @ Aug 20 03, 10:10 PM GMT)
I'ld say that is one of the most important and often forgotten steps in the procreation of fungi Brainbreath!  laugh.gif  wub.gif


laugh.gif laugh.gif

No, really... Boxed asked what applejack's av was...
so I linked to the uploaded image so it would be larger and he could see what it was tongue.gif wacko.gif
It is a very important and helpful step though wink.gif

QUOTE (maryxmas @ Aug 20 03, 10:13 PM GMT)
when you PC for 2 hours, how deep in water are your jars?


I put rings(from the jar lids) under the standoff plate to add a little height, then fill the PC till the water just barely covers the plate, not more than 1/4" up the side of the jars. I've never had it come close to drying out, even running it for 4+ hours.


Posted by: BoxedFarts Aug 21 03, 11:47 AM GMT
QUOTE (brainbreath @ Aug 21 03, 12:27 AM GMT)
does this help?


Yes it does! Thanks brainbreath !! smile.gif


Posted by: brainbreath Aug 21 03, 12:50 PM GMT
yer welcome ya' Audacious Bastid!! biggrin.gif wub.gif



Posted by: Ben Stein Aug 20 03, 12:50 AM GMT
When using wbs as substrate should it be soaked or steeped or both?

I was thinking about adding some to regular brf/verm jars to use as spawn in a lazy-mofo bag or just as a small casing.

Any general advice on wbs? huh.gif

TIA
Ben


Posted by: maryxmas Aug 20 03, 12:57 AM GMT
use mycota WBS tek

soak for 18 hours

apply tyvek filter disk


screw on lid

apply coffe filter and rubberband


apply foil


PC


xmas


Posted by: Malformed Aug 20 03, 01:02 AM GMT
QUOTE (Ben Stein @ Aug 20 03, 12:50 AM GMT)
I was thinking about adding some to regular brf/verm jars to use as spawn in a lazy-mofo bag or just as a small casing.


if you are doing the lazy mofo bag thing, why not just follow the lazy mofo bag / flatcake instructions, for preparing the birdseed, for the mix.

wink.gif

QUOTE
Materials:
1) brf
2)vermiculite(COARSE ground)
3)wbs-wild bird seed preferably no sunflower seeds and use premium brand finch seed available at wallmart. the brand used is "wild harvest" 8 in1 wild finch seed, premium blend. it has a very fine particle size. mostly small millet.
4. distilled water
5. 6$ hand mixer available at wallmart for mixing up eggs, cake, cookies
6. get a large bowl for mixing
7. foil
Ratios for 24 jars:
1)6 cups brown rice flour, 12 cups vermiculite, roughly 2-3 cups wild bird seed.

Procedure: (please note that this mix is for the adding to of the lazy mofo bag tek. if you are making these jars to inoculate then you should add a top layer of dry verm for protection from contamination)
1) steep the wild bird seed for 15 mins. this means bringing the wbs to a boil and then turning it to low and letting simmer on low for 15 mins. it is ready when some of the seed starts to break open.
2) get the large bowl and fill it with the vermiculite first
3) next throw the brf on top of the vermiculite
4) after that strain the wbs and add it to the top of the mix
5) here is the tricky part and this is the MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE ENTIRE PROCEDURE. being that moisture content is key to the vitality and yield of a flatcake. This is the part where most people screw things up. the most important thing to do is follow the instructions completely with the mixes and all and everything should work out just fine. posted below are multiple pictures of how the mix should look. once it looks like this you should be ready to put it in jars.
6) add distilled water. the most added should be 6 cups and the least should be 4 cups. now add about 2 cups water in and mix with the handmixer. if it looks a little dry add a little more. but make sure that you don't add too much water. you need to add then mix then add until you have reached the picture below particle size. this is key. the particle size should look like little pellets from a bb gun not like clumps similar to the pics that pf posts. this is not the pf tek. this is a variation in which the optimal moisture content has to be right or else it will slow growth. too big of particles means too much water, too small of particles means too dry and it will also look a little powdery if it is too dry.
7) once you have mixed the mixture to optimal moisture squeeze it between your fingers. it should feel very light and fluffy and should have consistent particle size throughout the mixture. if not blend it more with the handmixer. now you can get a large spoon and fill the 1/2 pint jars.
8) if inoculating these jars add a top verm layer. if using lazy mofo tek just put the lid on top and foil over the lid.
9) now pc for 30 minutes and let cool then follow the lazy mofo bag tek.


Posted by: Ben Stein Aug 20 03, 09:50 AM GMT
Thanks guys!

I just remember reading about soaking grains for 24 hours to germinate endospores and was wondering if wbs fit into this category.

I'll just steep it for 15 and go with the lazy-mofo, cuz that's what I am!

Thanks again; you guys rule!!


Posted by: jqpindahouse Aug 20 03, 03:43 PM GMT
I would definitely soak for 24 hrs ala the Mycota WBS Tek.


Posted by: Malformed Aug 20 03, 04:30 PM GMT
every time i soaked overnight or even 24 hours, i had problems.
when i started steeping, i havnt had a failure yet.


Posted by: jqpindahouse Aug 20 03, 04:52 PM GMT
QUOTE (Malformed @ Aug 20 03, 09:30 PM GMT)
every time i soaked overnight or even 24 hours, i had problems.
when i started steeping, i havnt had a failure yet.


What is your process for steeping?

How long do you steep, at what temp, and do you rinse afterwards and how long do you drain?


Posted by: Lophophophile Aug 20 03, 05:00 PM GMT
QUOTE
1) steep the wild bird seed for 15 mins. this means bringing the wbs to a boil and then turning it to low and letting simmer on low for 15 mins. it is ready when some of the seed starts to break open.


look up smile.gif


Posted by: Malformed Aug 20 03, 05:00 PM GMT
like i said above.
QUOTE

1) steep the wild bird seed for 15 mins. this means bringing the wbs to a boil and then turning it to low and letting simmer on low for 15 mins. it is ready when some of the seed starts to break open.


Posted by: Malformed Aug 20 03, 05:01 PM GMT
haha.

good timing.

by the way, i drain till its drained. tongue.gif


Posted by: meatwad Aug 20 03, 06:35 PM GMT
hey Mal, how long do you drain your wbs?


Posted by: Malformed Aug 20 03, 07:37 PM GMT
like i said, i drain it till its drained. tongue.gif

it depends, sometimes a few minutes. sometimes longer.


Posted by: meatwad Aug 20 03, 07:40 PM GMT
laugh.gif i was just playin', i guess i should've put a tongue.gif on the end of that


Posted by: jungjedi Aug 21 03, 02:24 AM GMT
i can only find the fine grain vermiculite.not the coarse.anything else i can use.can i use perlite


Posted by: Malformed Aug 21 03, 03:13 AM GMT
if you cant get coarse, fine will work.

perlite isnt as good as even the shittiest vermiculite.
any verm = number 1 choice.

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