|By Brettiejams (Brettiejams) on Sunday, January 20, 2002 - 09:22 pm:|
Well, I sold my glove-box to a friend a while back, and I have yet to complete my Flow-Hood.
Anyway, I'm really getting the itch to do some more grains, but with no glove-box or flow-hood at my disposal at this time, I was considering trying my hand at an Oven-Tek grain innoculation.
Anyone have any experience, good or bad, with this?
All comments will be appreciated.
|By Fanaticus (Fanaticus) on Sunday, January 20, 2002 - 10:53 pm:|
I am sitting here near
my oven. So after I heat
it up and open the front,
scads of hot air comes out.
And then, when that hot air
comes out, the room air
flows right on in with a mighty
Unless your room air is
sterile, the air inside
your oven is hot dirty
this "OVEN TEK"'s a joke.
A hand box "isolation" box
But then the question becomes
from somebody "it works great
Well, we all know what a bunch of
bullshit SCIENTOLOGY is.
It "works" for John Trovolta
and other hollywood people
amongst millions of people around the
|By Kman (Kman) on Sunday, January 20, 2002 - 11:00 pm:|
ya but Pf rising hot air can't fall down and into your working area. So if you clean all you surfaces and spray down the air with bleach or lysol. Wouldn't that be effective? I have myself gone to 0% contam rate since using the oven tek. Maybe its other factors that are creating the success, but it seems to make sense to me.
|By Spun Yun Gi (Spunion_Elf) on Sunday, January 20, 2002 - 11:07 pm:|
"He goes out, and pays a lot of money, to L. Ron Hoover, at The First Church of Apliantology.....
Welcome to The First Church of Apliantology, the wite zone is for loading and unloading only...
Don't you be tarot-fied
it's just a token, of my extreme.
If you've been modo-fied
it's just a lotta nothin' so what can it mean?"
While the oven-tech doesn't eliminate the possibility of contams, I think the physics behind it are sound. It reduces the chance of contamination, by making the contams rise up, instead of giving them a chance to fall onto your jar. Worst case scenario: it couldn't hurt.
Spun Yun Gi
|By Brettiejams (Brettiejams) on Sunday, January 20, 2002 - 11:11 pm:|
I guess I'll just rig up some lids with poly-fil stuffed holes, so I can innoculate through the poly-fil lids, right there on a clean counter.
I'd still like to hear other opinions on the "oven-Tek", although P.F.'s point about the hot air being displaced by dirty air makes a lot of sense to me. And if you pull out a hot rack to work on, the air being forced up by the heat, will be "dirty" air.
Maybee the fact that nothing can settle "down", because the air is moving up, is enough to help keep the contams from settling in your jar when innoculating grains.....
|By plinkerdink420 (Plinkerdink420) on Monday, January 21, 2002 - 12:43 am:|
i spray a little bit of lysol in the air just as precaution before doing grain innoculations over my oven, and i have had staggering success... i don't think that has anything to do with scientology, but... whatever
|By An guy (Boomer) on Monday, January 21, 2002 - 02:26 am:|
not, in any way, to take away from pf who I really consider a giant..
but because one comes up with a revolutionary idea, does not an expert in all facets of a field make one.
when i got faith in oven tek was when i saw a quote or post by oldtimer saying he'd been using it for years and years with success....little bit i know about oldtimer sez he's another elder in the field, so....
i'm gonna try the recent version i saw, think it was plink or hatcher, where instead of the door open all the way and using the bottom shelf, use the top shelf set all the way up, close the door up to the edge of the extended shelf, and go.
some off-the-top-of-my-head physics- a current is created, and at the bottom that current, full of contams, is passed over the heat source, which at least is going to cut massively down on contams, which i think is all that ever really happens anyways, you never get rid of them totally, just reduce the numbers so their chances at forming viable colonies ahead of our babies is greatly reduced.
I have a pos. pressure box, and it works pretty good, I just want to go back and try the above version of the oven tek= widen and hone my skills...
just my $.02
|By relic (Relic) on Monday, January 21, 2002 - 06:34 am:|
i never cared much for the idea of it. all the particles go up, but like pf said, you are at the center of all the air movement. it all moves towards you. b/c people use it with such success, i don't really doubt it works. i guess i just don't like it. i've been doing this for years and never found the need for it. i inoc. on the countertop and transfer grain on the countertop and make syringes on the countertop; all in still air. do agar/karo work in the glovebox. to each his own. i've got a gas oven too, so i'd be getting fumed @ around 35-100 ppm CO, or more.
|By Regular Expression (Xeger) on Monday, January 21, 2002 - 07:23 am:|
A FOAF asked me to send along this message:
I'm still a newbie, but I've gone through two innoculations now without ever having a single jar go contam on me during colonization.
I use heavy-duty masking tape to cover the jar lid holes during PC; additionally, I cover each jar with a piece of tin foil, so air can escape from the inside of the jar but no water can seep in. I PC them at 250F for 90 minutes, figuring a little overkill never hurt anybody.
The next day, after the jars have cooled, I set up my innoculation area. Throughout the day (and the night before) I run a HEPA air filter in the room. I use the laminated top of a chest-high dresser as my work surface. A few minutes before innoculating I spray Lysol around the work area, and on doorknobs and other surfaces I might be unable to avoid touching. Finally, I swab the countertop down with rubbing alcohol, and place everything I'll need onto the countertop: tissues in an individual-sized pack; masking tape; a bowl of rubbing alcohol; and a spore syringe.
I line the jars up on the counter, still with their foil caps on. After taking the foil cap off each jar and discarding it, I use my hand to smear some rubbing alcohol on the glass sides of the jar and on the top. I make sure the tip of the syringe is sterile by briefly swishing it around in the rubbing alcohol, flick it a few times to get the alcohol off, and innoculate the jar. Then I quickly put fresh masking tape on over the holes.
The point to all this is: I don't think room air is a huge source of contamination during innoculation. I think sterile instruments and a sterile work surface will contribute much more to the success of the endeavour. If you are worried about airborne contams, you're better off innoculating in a controlled environment (glove box or room with clean air) where you can guarantee clean air, than in your kitchen.
I know *my* kitchen is a thriving bacterial hotbed. Some days I don't even go in there, for fear of being mugged by a vicious slime mold gang!
|By relic (Relic) on Monday, January 21, 2002 - 07:40 am:|
my kitchen rocks
you make a really good point though. clean instruments, when inoculating are probably the single most important factor. after doing untold numbers of inoculations and syringe preparation over the last few years i've come to the conclusion that a clean surface, dust mask, still air and a clean needle is all you need. wearing latex gloves is always a good if lifting the lid to inoc. or transfer spawn. i wouldn't transfer agar or open karo jars in the open air though. many people over do their cleaning precautions. probably b/c of misunderstood or continued failures or sheer paranoia. i guess you can never be too clean, short of chemical contamination, but if you just use a little common sense you'll be in like flynn.
|By quote: (Quote) on Monday, January 21, 2002 - 02:15 pm:|
i agree with pf--a simple cardboard glovebox is generally better than the oven tek. i've used the oven tek several times, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. as someone mentioned, for it to work, your oven and kitchen need to be really really clean. which means you'd prolly get just as good results working on the countertop as on the oven door.
|By plinkerdink420 (Plinkerdink420) on Monday, January 21, 2002 - 02:17 pm:|
|By Fanaticus (Fanaticus) on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 12:37 am:|
OK, so the rising air keeps the contaminants from "falling" into your vessels? Well , the rising air creates currents and eddies of air swirling.
In theory, the oven TEK makes no sense. With dirty hot rising air flowing around, contaminants can easily just "swirl" down into your vessels.
A simple hand box is the way to go. But if the oven tek works for you, and you like, well that is good. But in theory, the whole idea is a load of crap. Rising hot contaminated air can and will get into your vessels through swirling air movements.
I bet if you use a room that has had a room air cleaner (HEPA Style) going on in it for several hours and then do the operation with much care, your results will be perfect (without the OVEN nonsense).
Sorry to refer to the coveted "OVEN TEK" as nonsense, but it is the idea of it, or the theory that is so lame.
|By Dr. Cubensis (Shroomzilla) on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 01:04 am:|
* ouch! *
No-one can ever say Fanaticus is not opinionated!!
LOL! Would love to see quotes take on this, though fanaticus has a point...
Hey people, build a positive pressure box, easy to work in, permanent.... The only major costs are
the plexi and the fans.....
I myself hate using my friends oven because of points fanaticus brings up...
"Unless your room air is
sterile, the air inside
your oven is hot dirty
rising air. "
"I bet if you use a room that has had a room air cleaner (HEPA Style) going on in it for several hours and then do the operation with much
care, your results will be perfect (without the OVEN nonsense). "
stick out the most....
My friend runs his hepa 24/7 but on days he is working with volatile stuff, he turns the particle filter up before his day job, and runs that sucker on high all day while he is at work... He comes home to a CLEAN smelling house, turns the hepa off, and gets to business....
My friend only uses an oven for innoculating jars..
SO, not to be redundant PF, You think with his other precautions that the oven is no more helpful than innoculating on the counter?
Oh, And thanks for taking the time to visit the forum and offer your wisdom pf....
We all really do appreciate it...
|By Kman (Kman) on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 01:06 am:|
well your theory of eddies and swirls is kind of unfounded. I agree that any swift movements will cause air currents, but the simple law of physics remains : Hot air will rise, just as a rock in the middle of a river will cause wild fluctuations in the current, the water still flows down stream just as the air will still rise. Agruably any gross movements will cause greater disturbances and may create enough of a back eddy that air MIGHT flow downward, but thats why you want to be very careful and delibrate with your movements.
Try throwing a stick in river and see what happens. ya that stick will sway and swirl and move all about, but it will never go back upstream.
|By quote: (Quote) on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 03:04 am:|
bad analogy, the oven is nothing like a river.
air circulates, being a gas, in a completely different manner than water, a fluid.
|By Kman (Kman) on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 03:10 am:|
well if pf and quote tell me I'm wrong, more than likely I'm wrong . Either way I think the best method is the one that works and you are comfortable with. Sorry guys.
|By Brettiejams (Brettiejams) on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 03:50 am:|
I tend to agree with P.F., I think all that moving air has a good chance of getting the air in your jar moving a little too, and then co-mingling a bit with the "dirty" outside air.
I think my chances of success would be better if I just keep things clean and keep the air as still as possible. I've never worn a particle mask while innoculating before, but I think I might have to incorporate that into my sterile routine, If only to keep my breath from "stirring" things up....Thanks Relic
Perhaps not having a glove-box right now will turn out to be a blessing, as I am forced to work on my sterile techniques, a bit.
|By Fanaticus (Fanaticus) on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 01:07 pm:|
I took a clean spore print once in my car. I sat and waited for the air in the car to settle down, then I took the print in a prep jar - in very unsterile conditions.
Then, When I was home, I processed the print in a HEPA environment and made clean syringes from a print I took out in the woods while sitting in my car (shroom was a wild local shroom).
I cultured the spores PF Style.
It is not hard to take a clean spore print. A still air environment works really well, and the rising hot dirty air in an oven is not still.
But, like I said, if it works for you, great, but the theory behind this RISING HOT AIR not going into your jars is B.S.
|By Fanaticus (Fanaticus) on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 01:24 pm:|
Here is great hairbrained add on to the OVEN TEK inoculation.
Get one of those cage type house fans. Place on the floor pointing upwards and turn it on. Place your culture vessels above the fan and do the work. The rising air will prevent contaminants from entering your jars.
What a great tek this, even if I have to say so myself.
|By quote: (Quote) on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 02:03 pm:|
i suspect alot of oven door success stories are just placebo effect.
for example, zilla says above how he uses it when he inoculates, and gets good results.
but i imagine the results would have been just as good if it had been done just about anywhere else.
sort of like how our ancestors used to sacrifice to make the rains come. or pray to bring the sun back after an eclipse.
since the rain & the sun always come, people become convinced it was their sacrifice/prayers working.
i think we see the same logic here.
|By Fanaticus (Fanaticus) on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 01:09 am:|
When a sterile media jar is opened
while in the midst of the
upwards flowing air movement
of the opened warm oven,
the air flowing upwards will create a
negative air pressure inside the jar and the
sterile air inside the jar will immediately be forced
out of the jar.
When that sterile air is forced out of the
jar, air must come back in to replace it, and the
air that comes back into the jar can only be
air from the contaminated rising air flow.
This idea is not as near as awesome as the NEIMAD
METHOD of Shroomery fame, but unfortunately, it is
not as good as the RAMSEY SEAL TEK (of shroomery fame).
But with these three together, one can not fail
in successful bacteria cultivation.
make sure these great TEKS are included in the
The Nook TEK archives!!!!!
|By onediadem (Onediadem) on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 01:18 am:|
"Ramsey seal tek"??
Hmmmm. Musta missed that one. Then again, I dont stray far from home either.
Havin a hard enough time over here (no pun intended) without throwing sex toys into the equasion.
Think I will stick to my glovebox.
Be well all'
|By Merlin (Merlin) on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 02:00 am:|
I like you, PJ.
Fanaticus is right, though.
I'm a HEPA guy. Save the oven for cooking.
|By Spun Yun Gi (Spunion_Elf) on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 07:26 am:|
And who the hell wants lysol and bleach residues in their oven anyway? That's just nasty. Keep the chemicals away from your food.
|By Hatcher (Hatcher) on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 08:16 am:|
I dunno. I've always used oven tek, and no problems to date. I put a thermometer on the rack and get the temp in the high ninties. "Fog" w/lysol,plenty of alcohol, dust mask, still air environment. This all might get it done w/o the oven, (making spore prints mainly), but the warm rising air hasn't hurt anything, for sure. And I've never sprayed the oven down..probably should!
Don't remember where I read it, but what got me doin' it was this letter from a guy that claimed to have used it for 15 yrs., and had won a bet once by letting a jar sit open on the rack for 30 min. and it never contamed.
|By Brettiejams (Brettiejams) on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 06:38 pm:|
Quote... Spunion- "And who the hell wants lysol and bleach residues in their oven anyway? That's just nasty. Keep the chemicals away from your food."
I'm with you on the Lysol, but chlorine(bleach) is in most tap water, and resturaunts use a bleach water solution to sterilize their food prep areas all the time. If you eat out, or drink chlorinated tap water, that stuff is in you, from time to time.
|By Fanaticus (Fanaticus) on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 07:05 pm:|
This is from Hatcher::
Don't remember where I read it, but what got me doin' it was this letter from a guy that claimed to have used it for 15 yrs., and had won a bet once by letting a jar sit open on the rack for 30 min. and it never contamed.
If you put a Prepared PF jar with no lid anywhere,the top verm layer will prevent contamination. You "Oven TEK" does nothing for this. It is not the "oven Tek" that does it, but the PF jars upper contaminant barrier.
And if anybody deletes this post, I am out of here,
|By An guy (Boomer) on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 09:14 pm:|
no doubt, pf, dealing with newbies over and over and people dissing your syringes etc is trying.
also, no doubt, people failing to realize the importance of the verm barrier, and that that in fact is the crux of many amatuers' successes is even more trying.
but most here don't do that, most here that I can tell don't give you any shit, and I myself, from time to time, try to subtly hilite the crucial importance and brilliance of that verm barrier- indeed, it does make a clean cake practically foolproof, when the jar's rim is wiped clean, and it is my firm belief that many have had success with it who otherwise wouldn't have.
In other words, I suspect that for the vast majority of newbies, that barrier has made the difference between shrooms and no shrooms.
On the other side, it would be nice if you could let the hackles down and stop being a total assmunch to people here- there is no reason for it. Far as I have seen, this board holds you in the highest esteem of any I have visited. It would be nice if you were a part of it, instead of a snipey drive-by snot.
|By quote: (Quote) on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 11:31 pm:|
there's one constant about pf that one must accept if one wants to have his input.
he's always been that way.
i can disagree with him,
but i think it's well worth listening to him.
and he has very kindly placed our website on a link on his webpage, which has no doubt been vital to the growth of this site.
so in a very real way, pf is a kind of father figure, both for his pf tek, and his backing of this site.
so i guess we'll just have to tolerate his grumpy-old-man persona if we value him.
hatcher was merely repeating what he had heard,
i've heard the same claim.
i don't know that it's factual or fiction,
but i do know from hands-on experience that
the oven-door tek is inferior and unreliable.
sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't,
it might be ok for inoculating jars or taking prints, where just a clean environment is sufficient,
but it's not for real sterile work like grain-to-grain transfers.
it's better by far to just take 10 minutes to build a disposable cardboard glovebox.
|By quote: (Quote) on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 04:16 am:|
c'mon, people, think about it.
you have pf himself, trying to help people,
setting folks straight about the oven door tek,
and he's right as far as i'm concerned.
then you get hatcher, who is innocent enough,
but yet he basically contradicts pf.
that's not the best thing to do, really.
who do you think has more experience and knowledge ?
i'd bet on pf.
so i wouldn't contradict him.
so get your emotions in check,
the truth is more important than ego.
you should be glad the pf took the time to help.
and forgive him if he's a bit gruff about being contradicted, he's only been making perfect syringes for years on end.
|By plinkerdink420 (Plinkerdink420) on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 04:43 am:|
ok quote.... so what, nobody should ever say anything that contradicts pf?.... ok, so the guy is basically a guru... that does not give him the right to bash people on this site... hatcher said himself that it may not be the actual oven, so he didn't actually "contradict" pf... i don't know man.... who is pf anyways.......... seriously..... is he some god to be feared...
|By An guy (Boomer) on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 04:59 am:|
This'll be my last one and then I'll drop it-
quo that's bullshit, and I'll use an analogy to show why, and it'll be a good one, be airtight and hold water, so to speak.
lets say I'm really good at something- lets say you want a whole automated system, from front to back, and I know about it and drop by, give you some advice on motion control for placing jars, what size stepper motor you need, that kind of thing, and it's invaluable advice...
but the whole time, I'm sneering at your house, your wife, your efforts, letting you know that in my mind, you're about as feeble as a dying fish out of water.
mmmm, you might put up with it for a bit, but you'd eventually tell me to fuck off, and learn it somewhere else or on your own.
I know how frustrated he is- flat not being listened to, contradicted, and all this with his knowledge and track record and the way he conducts his biz- forthrightly and honestly, as is evidenced by the recent notice of the degenerate race and free replacement of syringes- man's a saint einstien of mushrooms, practically.
that dont' mean shit if he's gonna just take a big shit here on whoever catches his fancy- there ain't been a single fuckin post of his here that has had the least little bit of simple courtesy since i've been coming here- tons of good knowledge, but along with it anything from pissyness to outright insult, as above with the 'make sure you include these teks in the Nook archives'- you hang around people like that? No? Not for long? me neither, and with reason. they make what they got too damn expensive.
And the contradictions, the newbie asking the question you *just* answered, and to boot, answering the same question over and over, even for a slightly abrasive newbie...yeah, he's mad at that.
but it happens to every single one of us here who try to answer questions- every single one of us. how many times you given an answer to a question, and they ask it right back in the next post, like they didn't even see your answer? lots, i've seen it.
happened to me, to plink, dr, monkey, eaty, fishy, everybody. what makes this place how it is is that we overlook that for a while, and some really good posters then evolve.
those who don't move on or you boot their ass if they display this kind of behaviour.
pj is right- I know damn well folk go to his site on recommendations from here, and while it might not be much, over time it'll grow- this board is solid and just getting better.
we don't owe him some debt where he gets to come here and slap somebody upside the face just because 'that's how he is, hehheh' or some deal.
That's fucked. people either learn a modicum of civility, or they become unwelcome, and you've booted them in the past- just the other day you booted shroomaster, who posted some thoughtful posts, but was usually all pissy.
ask yourself- if I came over and helped you, but was contstantly insulting you, your friends, etc...how long would you keep them friends if you didnt' tell me to either mellow or go to hell? How long would I be welcome at your place?
He has been beyond rude, and while i'd love it if he could chill, nobody else gets to stay if they get to near that level.
I almost think you're trying to accomodate him so this place'll be the one that 'pf posts to'.
well, you're the main one always explaining about how ya gotta boot the undesirables, the shit flingers. yeah, he's got gold tek, and out the ass to boot. so what, if he can't even say hi once in a while.
pf- I can admire the smarts and the knowledge- i invent and people who think up new shit that's worthwhile and works like hell are tops in my book. but for the way you've comported yourself since i've been coming here, fuck your ignorant ass with your own horn. because you're about the main grandaddy in this field doesn't exempt you from basic civility, doesn't mean you get to shit all over everybody, and that's *not* the way to teach. If you got kids, I pity them.
|By ion ewe (Ion) on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 05:12 am:|
Uevos del torros, my man! Not to feed the fire, really, but right-the-fuck on! I do agree that people should be kind to one another, no matter how "grandfathered" their ideas.
Be good family!
|By Hatcher (Hatcher) on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 06:18 am:|
Whew. Alot to come home too...
First: Thanks gentlemen. I've long believed that if a person isn't basically kind, they're basically nothing, for all practical purposes.
Second: I don't remember what kind of jar he said he left open in the oven, if he did say,been a while... If he had been growing for 15+ yrs., it probably wasn't a vermiculite-barrier type.
Third: It would be hard for me to fathom anyone w/even an interest in mycology, let alone be successful in producing specimens, to be any kind of idiot.
Fourth: I said I couldn't for sure give the oven credit for my never having had a failure, only that I have yet to have one at that stage.
Peace my brothers.
|By Fanaticus (Fanaticus) on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 08:48 am:|
I will attempt to shake some sense
into you people.
If an OPEN jar (notice I say OPEN)
is placed in a flow of air going up
around the jar, negative pressure
is created inside the jar, and the air
in the jar immediately evacs up with the
So when the air in the jar evacs, that
air must be replaced. And the only
air that can go back into the jar, is the
air around the jar. And that is the
upward flowing air which is not sterile.
So when people say they use it and it works,
they must be referring to the use of PF jars
which are very contaminant resistant, even
in the middle of an upward flowing air movement.
(as long as the air movement is not fast).
So how about us putting this lame brained
piece of shit for a "TEK" out of its misery?
Leave it for the SHROOMERY.
|By Nan (Nanook) on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 09:06 am:|
I can't get rid of the Tek PF, it's entrenched... But I feel basically the same way about it you do, never liked for any kind of sterile work, and you are right about PF jars of course.
But with your permission I will edit the conflict out of this thread and I will append it to the posted tek. I have been moving towards red-flagging and editing Teks to improve overall accuracy. I have always posted of the necessity of a glovebox for any open sterile work... It's a small investment, and beats the hell out of working over a hot oven.
|By quote: (Quote) on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 10:25 am:|
see, pf has class.
and let's be honest here,
it is rude to contradict your elders.
seems that some of you are forgetting that.
and many of you are being far ruder than pf was.
and few seem to be concerned with either the truth of the matter, or the long-term good of the site.
so everyone just back off,
and let me do my job as i see best.
|By Dr. Cubensis (Shroomzilla) on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 05:32 pm:|
By the way....
As far as I am concerned...
Oven teks are a memory.......
Any newbies come around askin, it's time for them to be learnin to make a glove box......