Bulk Tek - Making my life easier :)

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By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 02:59 am: The Nook

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By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 03:05 am: The Nook

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By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 03:07 am: The Nook

Hey everyone! Happy new year! OK then, I've had success for quite a while now with PF style cakes birthed into and fruited in Quart jars thanks to all your help. Thanks guys See pics above:

Now that I have this down I'm beggining to get weary. I don't know how much longer I can go on mixing up and inoculating 150-250 jars at a time. We're talking about a 13 hour work day with two people and only two 15min breaks. That's sterilization and innoculation all in the same day. Even though I only have to do this once or twice a month I'm beggining to get weak. Now please understand, I'm not trying to get lazy....I've done as I was told and stuck with the PF tek (one jar at a time) method for a full year before moving on to any advanced teks. Now after much much reading I've been edging closer and closer to Quote's bulk tek with oven bags because it uses the same brown rice flour + vermiculite that I am familiar with already. I want to fully colonize the bulk substrate via quo's method then once 100% colonized I want to cut it into cubes to place into my fruiting jars. I don't want to change my setup....it's dialed in perfectly...just need a more effiecient way of getting cakes/cubes in the jars. So here are my questions:
1: Eatyualive who seems to be a very knowledgeable grower exclaimed on one or more of his posts that the quo bulk tek worked great but then on another post quote was saying that this tek should be red flagged....I don't understand? I think I should give it a try how about you?
2: On the Admin. post discribing the quote bulk tek I understand why polyfill is to be used with the oven bags but I'm a bit confused as to how to clamp the bag around the polyfill (maybe a rubberband?); and in the tips section where he speaks about double bagging he says to twist the bag and use the twisty that comes with the bag on both, does this mean I do or don't use polyfill on the inner or outer bags.
3. I have 2 preasure cookers, can I use them with the oven bags without melting them.

Well hope to hear from you guys soon. Thanks again for all your previous help
Chronic007

By mr. mista (Mistabud) on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 03:07 am: The Nook

I must say, that is impressive.

By ShrooMaster (Shroomaster) on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 03:08 am: The Nook

what size jars are they? btw im green with fucking envy on a couple of those .

By plinkerdink420 (Plinkerdink420) on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 03:23 am: The Nook

he said "PF style cakes birthed into and fruited in Quart jars"
i know that you can use oven bags in a pressure cooker, just try and keep them away from the sides... as for the rest of your questions.... i'll let the big guns tackle that

By jack cracker (Cptcracker) on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 03:45 am: The Nook

if you have been faithful to the pf tek, then you are still mixing your jars one at a time, which is a major pain. feel free to mix a bigger batch, using the same proportions. i.e. 1/4 cup brf, 1/2 cup vermiculite, 50 ml h2o X 12 = 3 cups brf, 6 cups vermiculite, 600 ml h2o. mix the water and the brf first, just like always, add the verm and pack... yada yada

the problem with greater bulk is the time it takes to colonize, unless you can shake...

By An guy (Boomer) on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 03:46 am: The Nook

jesus, how do you get those stems so consistently fat and such generally huge fruit. looks like you been feeding them donuts and bacon grease for a year...
Much impressed.

By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 10:59 am: The Nook

Well thanks for the compliments guys! I couldn't have done it without all the helpful people on this board. Jack cracker, thanks for the advice but preasure cooking all those jars still takes an arm and a leg. what I really need is some answers to my questions on Quo's bulk tek. Hopefully from someone who had tried and succeeded. Thanks guys I'll be checking back very often. Bye BYe

By quote: (Quote) on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 04:13 pm: The Nook

the central problem with the bulk tek lies in 2 places.
1. the oven bags themselves. after many experiments i was forced to conclude that many oven bags are shoddily made, often leak, and don't hold up well. you'll get much better results using spawn bags commercially available from fungiperfecti.com, complete with filter patch.
2. moisture. they dry out quickly, thru the polyfil/filter patch, and need to be incubated in a high humidity environment to minimize such evaporation. also, using plenty of liquid inoculant, mycellial water, speeds up the colonization and helps forestall drying.
once you get good bags, and keep moisture up,
bulk works great.

awesome pic, btw.

By Dr. Cubesis III (Newbieshroomer) on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 04:29 pm: The Nook

Wow!

I am green with envy myself...
Those look great!!!

Geez, Chronic, you got a brown thumb or what???

By Scott Anthony (Greenthumb422) on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 04:38 pm: The Nook

Yeah, those look excellent, where can I find more information about that kind of birthing?

By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 05:33 pm: The Nook

Thanks for the quick reply quote, I have a question though. Why can't you completely seal off the bag after being sterilized to prevent moisture from escaping? And then maybe poke a hole or two at 80% colonization. After all that what we do on a smaller scale with 1/2 pint jars. Hope I'm not looking over anything painfully obvious!

Scott Anthony: Just birth then dunk tek your cakes before placeing them into the upsidedown quart jar. The Jar lids should have four 1\8" holes evenly spaced out, We place our cakes on a riser made from a 1" slice of 1 1/2" pvc, the spacer sits between the lid and the cake. Make sure that when the jar sits upsidedown on a surface that your surface does not block the holes. I know it sounds anal but this caused problems for me. Above all make sure the temp stays as damn near possibly close to 76 degrees at all times during fruiting so the cakes can maintain their propper humidity. Can't over emphasize this enough! Good luck

By Dr. Cubesis III (Newbieshroomer) on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 07:21 pm: The Nook

Woohoo! Yea baby!!

Not to bring up any company secrets or anything.

But you say you do this once a month...

Is it to forward to ask some " specific " questions??? :) FOr the sake of science of course :)

* How many jars make it from the 13 hour crazy jar
workshop from what you started? As in, contam
rates?

* WHat is your average yield wet per mass harvest?
What is the average yield dry?

* Per cake ( and those cakes look SOOOO nice )
what kind of yield do you get per cake? Higher
than birth into a full terrarium, the same, or
lower?

* Will you marry into my family?? Oh, sorry, that
is for another forum! My bad. What else???

* The riser idea is great, is that your own
idea???

* Would you suggest this method to other bulk
growers??

I know, I know, Frivolous silly questions. But a Buddy of mine liberated a freezer recently, and at this moment in time, is pursuing a grain/dung casing tek on a large scale, and is REALLY curious about your yields. He is not sure which way to go,
but it looks like your quart/vitro tek takes care of itself!

If you have the time, I'm all ears :)
And I would bet a lot of other people here are to,
s'not every day us common folk are exposed to
such great pix, great pix featuring a great tek, carried out how it was meant to....

Anyway, fingers are getting in the way of the brain. Would love additional details....

By Mr. Tambourine Man (Tambourine_Man) on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 10:09 pm: The Nook

Which race are those Chronic?

By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 10:46 pm: The Nook

Well let us start this off on the right foot. I know it was my bad stating how many jars I do but I needed to so people would feel my pain in needing a bulk substrate producing method that would adhere to my setup; but the word company sets me on the jittery side. Definitely no company here, not now, not ever. Know I know some of you little calculator heads are twitching but lets just say I have a few very happy friends. I just love doing this, it's an escape. But for the sake of science I'll elaborate. All my girls are classic PF race.

Fact #1: I've stood on the shoulders of the best, I'm no one special and no different than you except maybe in one way, I never ever quit, ever! If you like what you see it can be yours just stay the road.

Fact #2: Plan do review if it fails it failed for a reason you just have to find out what that was and change it

Fact #3: We yield around 6-8 grams per cake dry, never really weighed them wet. Never used a terrarium so I don't know average yields but you can find out on the board for sure.

Fact #4: Except for a time that we inoculated with a contaminated batch of mycelium water and lost all 250 we rarely lose more than 10. But we are never lazy when it comes to sterilization.

Fact #5: Will I marry into your family? Any good cooks in the fam?

Fact #6: Well not really sure. Didn't get the idea from anyone else but someone may have used it already. The risers serve a few purposes; keeping the cake out of the pooling water, keeping the cake out of the tapered neck of the jar, and making sure the cake doesn't plug up the holes which was once a big problem for me.

Fact #7: Not sure if I would advise this process to others without a way to grow bulk substrate then cut into cubes for the jars, I desperately need help with this because I'm growing weary of 13 hour days. But if I could figure out bulk substrate I would recommend this method for sure, we're talking no maintenance, just scrape, dunk, dry, return to jars!

Fact #8: Keeping the jars at 76 degrees has proved to be the most important part of the operation I highly suggest you do ten jars and see if you can keep them at this temp in whatever you are going to regulate the temp inside of. Make sure to spread the jars top to bottom of your fridge or whatever you use because the top is always hotter.

Didnít know anyone would be interested in my setup. This calls for another thanks to the greats. Thanks again guys. Maybe Iíll post a few more pics, it may help you in your setups if you are going to try this. Take care all. And if anyone has had thier hands in growing bulk verm + brf substrate please lend a helping hand. Thanks Take care and be safe
Chronic007

By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 10:50 pm: The Nook

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By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 10:52 pm: The Nook

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By Dr. Cubesis III (Newbieshroomer) on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 11:41 pm: The Nook

" company sets me on the jittery side. "

Ack!!!! Figure of speech, nothing intended!!!

Thanks for answering my questions. Very excited about trying the invitro method.
Had read up on it of course, a bit. But always thought that invitro is the way to go for people to hide thier stuff. You know, kids at home, live with the family... Your post definitely shed some new light on the process.

" Fact #5: Will I marry into your family? Any good cooks in the fam? "

Oh yes.... Girlfriend and I cook out of a HUGE cookbook collection about three times a week. And you are in luck! My Hunchback pigeon toed sister with permanent jaundice is in the market, i'll be sure to put you two in touch, as it looks like we may have a match made in heaven :) Though she does have a drooling problem, and a pretty bad sexual disease picked up from a public toilet... Some people are just unlucky I guess :) Can't wait for the wedding!!!!

I only mentioned the risers cause I've never heard of them before. Of course I had heard that
you should put " Something " under the jars, but never pvc risers specifically. Great idea.
Can't wait to get home and call my buddy :)


" Not sure if I would advise this process to others without a way to grow bulk substrate then cut into cubes for the jars, I desperately need help with this because I'm growing weary of 13 hour days. But if I could figure out bulk substrate I would recommend this method for sure, we're talking no maintenance, just scrape, dunk, dry, return to jars! "

Hmmm, Do you think maybe you could use a medium such as birdseed? A lot more time/effort intensive. But great nutrients. I think all that would call for is colonizing the seed. Scooping it into
half pints to knit. and then birthing in the quart jar. Not sure about dunking grains. To be honest never heard about that. BUt I am sure that the godfather of your tek is standing by watching this thread as it unfolds... I am sure he will have helpful info in this area. I know all about long days at this hobby. Reading your thread was almost a godsend. My buddy is SOOOO tired of all the work of tending his cakes and casings. Possibly more trouble than it is worth. So I stumbled across your thread which is surely a step in the right direction for my buddy. Reading the above again. I really think that you would be in great shape using seed/grains.. They are easily formed into cakes...
I wonder what quotes thoughts on this are.. * hint* * hint * :)

" Fact #8: Keeping the jars at 76 degrees has proved to be the most important part of the operation I highly suggest you do ten jars and see if you can keep them at this temp in whatever you are going to regulate the temp inside of. Make sure to spread the jars top to bottom of your fridge or whatever you use because the top is always hotter. "

Good deal, will keep that in mind.

" Didnít know anyone would be interested in my setup."

Don't know about anyone else, but I am fascinated with your setup. The mind whirls in so many directions when I think of all the different directions that can be taken from your ( er, quotes ) base blueprints. And I still think that getting away from the small jars of brf is the way to go.
Not sure how to accomplish this. But sure it could be altered for grains....

Hey Chronic007, Thanks man.
Will keep up with this thread as it develops :)

The Newbie Shroomer

By onediadem (Onediadem) on Friday, January 04, 2002 - 01:26 am: The Nook

THAT literally took my breath away. I love to see stuff like this, gives one such high hopes.
Love your pics and setup.
pj

By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Friday, January 04, 2002 - 01:57 am: The Nook

Well Dr. Cubesis III (Newbieshroomer), she sounds like just the woman I've been looking for. Glad my trials and tribulations could be of some help to someone else. As for the grains I don't know to much about anything other than BRF but I'll do some research. I'm still waiting for more info from Quote and Eatyualive but in the meantime I've been hitting the books hard for a good oven bag sub (quote says shotty oven bags and moisture loss are the bane of the bulk tek), and I'm pretty much drawn to polypropylene autoclave bags and I am working on a modified polyfill filter with air close valve for keeping moisture in the bag after sterilization. Anyone have any suggestions on how to keep the bag from touching the sides of the preasure cooker. I just know I can figure this Bulk substrate thing out with a bit of help. Thanks again looking forward to seeing the evolution of this thread. Chronic007

By Roc (Rochester) on Friday, January 04, 2002 - 02:39 am: The Nook

Excellant Job!!!

By onediadem (Onediadem) on Friday, January 04, 2002 - 08:13 am: The Nook

Ok, let me play the airhead, with this little tek here, do you still need humidity, or do the cakes in the quarts take care of themselves? Is temp the only concern here? If I got this, this is invitro, right? If so, I like that they dont get all smooshed next to the glass. They are very pretty.
thanks, pj

By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Friday, January 04, 2002 - 08:39 am: The Nook

The cakes will create their own humidity once they are properly hydrated (after dunking) and kept at the propper temp (76 degrees)

PLEASE SOMEONE WITH SOME GOOD NEWS ON A BULK BRF + VERTEK TEK

Any big guns check out this site, I'm sure you have but do you think his ideas could help us out....I mean dang I don't have a PHD

www.mycomasters.com

By quote: (Quote) on Friday, January 04, 2002 - 01:34 pm: The Nook

hey, why don't you try 9er's tek of whole rice cakes in your set-up ?
eliminating the verm. and grinding rice & mixing, etc.
just spoon whole cooked rice into jars, top off w/verm. barrier/filter disk/polyfil, and go.

By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Friday, January 04, 2002 - 05:50 pm: The Nook

Sounds like a good idea quote but I have one question for you. In the 9er's tek he makes multiple mentions of the pure rice cakes contaminating quicker than the pf cakes, does this apply to me too since I don't case my cakes at all or have them in super humid terreriums?

By quote: (Quote) on Friday, January 04, 2002 - 06:24 pm: The Nook

i think your set-up would work to minimize contaminants,
and see no reason to think the 9er cakes would contam more than normal.
my only concern might be that uncased cakes with no verm. would tend to run out of water quickly.
but dunking should help fix that.

By nuecrew (Nue) on Friday, January 04, 2002 - 06:52 pm: The Nook

I have had nothing but success with the 9er tek. And by the way where did the name "9er/9er's tek" come from. Thought maybe some football fans got bored at halftime. ??????
Quote said...."Vermiculite works just as well with Cubensis as 50/50 or any of the other casings". He is right, I included a pic of some Sp.Wrks.Hawaiian. I shot the pint jars with spores and cased with vermiculite straight out of the bag. Misted until pinning and a 1/4" open on top after to keep humidity around 85%. I've found humidity guages are no more useful than watching the inside of the glass for condensation.
About contamination....while shooting I use an alcohol flame and breath control and have had two greenies and those were probably from not enough verm. on top and sniffing through the hole for the "apple smell". I have had my share of bacterial contamination(the apple smell)with pints of BR. I have solved that by PC'ing longer(1 hour) at a full 15lbs and PC'ing while the rice is still warm.vermiculite casing/Hawaiian

By An guy (Boomer) on Friday, January 04, 2002 - 07:13 pm: The Nook

Haven't really experimented enough with it yet, but dunking with lime water seems to help with contam prevention, as does initially cooking whole grain in water with a dash or two of lime. It seems to help somewhat with contams, but I'm not sure it doesn't fuck with good growth too- like I say, my efforst are not near enough to tell yet with all other factors stabilized, but you might try it- jars using the lime water for rice cooking, whole grain, took a long time to contam. weeks. They weren't knocked up, just wanted to see how long they could stay clean without being colonized. These are whole grain jars.

My end goal is to make pots of rice like you would for eating, in lime water, then just fluff it up, and lighty load jars or bulk cakes with it.

I'm damn sure gonna try this quart jar technique of yours...

having said that, I don my patented puppy eyes, slide next to chronic, and out with the 'I love you man'.....

By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Saturday, January 05, 2002 - 02:30 am: The Nook

Quote: Ya, I couldn't really figure out why in the 9er tek it kept mentioning higher contams on the pure BR cake as apposed to Pf Cake.....I've noticed that once the cakes are fully colonized it's much more difficult for invaders to get a foothold. I've been doing alot of reading since your suggestion of the 9er tek and it's sounding better and better. Now I'm down to one question. Do you think it would be feasable to use the 9'er tek in autoclave bags instead of quart or half gallon jars to sterilize the rice after cooking and then inoculate through the bag as in your bulk tek. (eliminate verm. and 1/2 pint jars) Then as you said the faulty oven bags would no longer be a factor....and I'm sure I could take care of regulating the moisture. Or do you think that much cooked rice may get to clumpy/bottom wet in an autoclave bag. Last question and I can start posting my progress. Thanks quo.

Nuecrew: Those look great man. There is seriously nothing better looking than a mushroom forest. Glad to here from someone that has enjoyed success with the 9'er tek. Have you tried colonizing in any greater size than pint jars?

An Guy: Thanks for the suggestion but contams haven't really been a prob when I stay anal about sterilization; and I don't like the feeling of adding something to my babbies that I could avoid by just being safe. As for your other idea of cooking up the rice and making bulk cakes with it......go buddy! I feel you on that one! I know we can make it work. And I really do recommend the Quart jar mini terreriums as long as you can maintain 75-77 degrees 90% of the time.

Well looking forward to hearing from you all so I can get this started and really start contributing to this board. Thanks again guys. Now I'm off to keep up on Quo's Voodo tek post! Take care.
Chronic007

By quote: (Quote) on Saturday, January 05, 2002 - 03:09 am: The Nook

i suspect that clumping would become a problem in large batches of rice, but i haven't actually tried it, so you'll have to let me know.

as for the 9er tek's name,
it was written a couple years back by a person called 9er.

it still might be a good idea to apply a thin casing of verm. to the cakes before placing them in the quarts for fruiting.
seems to help promote pinning.

By Hatcher (Hatcher) on Saturday, January 05, 2002 - 07:40 am: The Nook

How 'bout a link to a good run-down on the 9er tek please Quo?

By Brettiejams (Brettiejams) on Saturday, January 05, 2002 - 07:44 am: The Nook

9'er Tek

By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Saturday, January 05, 2002 - 12:01 pm: The Nook

Allright then, sounds like the 9'er tek 1/2 pints and 9'er tek autoclave bag are my next missions. After some thought I was wondering quote, if there is no more risk of contam in a pure BR cake than there is in a PF cake, then why don't you use them quo? Seems that more food would mean more flushes for the mucks, especially if it comes with the bonus of less prep. Maybe I'm missing something? Just wondering what your opinion is between 9'er tek and Pf tek. Always good to hear and understand the big guns' opinion on things. Anyways take care guys, good luck, and be safe!
Chronic007
P.S. keep the post alive; still looking for someone who is excited about a bulk substrate tek that work consistantly well for them and could be morphed to accept my setup.

By quote: (Quote) on Saturday, January 05, 2002 - 01:51 pm: The Nook

lol
when i said i hadn't tried it, i meant doing large batches of rice in bags.
i'm more of an experimenter/teacher than a real quantity grower, so i try all kinds of things to see what works. i do a lot of work on pf-style cakes, because that's the most commonly used tek.
i guess what i'm trying to say is that i don't personally grow any one way for long, i did try 9er tek a few years ago on a few batches but haven't since then. no real reason, just lack of interest.

By Karna (Karna) on Saturday, January 05, 2002 - 07:00 pm: The Nook

Chronic 007
Here is a tek I think you might like. I have used this or different variations on and off for almost four years now. It works quite consistently and gives great results.

This tek works with great with whole grain rice and rye as well as BRF - the only 3 substrates I have tested so far. The largest batch to date is ten pints worth of rye, 9 pints worth of whole rice (can't remember largest brf)

It is VERY simple. You need Ziplock 2.5 gallon bags (any large grocery store) and smaller ziplock sandwich bags (same)

Cook your substrate perfectly - the most important step. If you don't, failure is usually the result although salvaging is possible.
I usually scoop into 16 pint jars (the most I can fit into my OC (stacked)) and sterilize.
Once cool, prepare your favorite inoculation area/transfer chamber/flow hood/oven.

Before opening the pc, get out 2 regular size ziplock baggies. Taking every sterile precaution, empty out one pint COLONIZED cake into each baggie (shake off the verm layer first if you use pf/rice substrate, scoop out with a sterile spoon if using rye) and reseal it. Break up the substrate completely inside the bag into individual grains. Try not to make it pasty. Set these aside. This is your inoculant.

Open the pc, get the jars out, get out 2 of the 2.5 gallon bags. Using every sterile precaution, empty 8 pints sterilized substrate into each 2.5 gallon bag. Open them as little as possible.
Once again using every sterile precaution, empty one baggie of inoculant into each 2.5 gallon ziplock, seal them and shake them all about for a while. Place these bags in incubation (I use a cooler) WITH THE ZIP OPEN about 1/3 to half of the way. This is important because sealing the zip will kill everything in about 2-3 days. You may think this is asking for contams leaving the grain exposed like that but let me tell you, I take just the barest precautions and live in relative squalor and contams are NOT a problem. A much bigger issue is improperly cooked grain. The reason being, colonization completes too fast for any bacteria or molds to take hold. Also the ziplock bags do NOT let the water out like the oven bags. Polyfill is not required at all and I feel it is better in this case not to use it.

Colonization should be complete in 7 days. 10 days at the out. After the 10 day mark, chances are contams have got a hold if colonization is not complete. At this stage, lay out you grain and dust with CaCO3 and inevitably the mycelium will recover and complete colonization in about 3 days.

Otherwise if everything goes well, lay the grain out, case, fruit etc.

The important advantage that Quote's bulk tek has over this tek is that Quote's tek eliminates the post-sterilization transfer that is the risky part. However as he pointed out, the oven bags are shit and as for the grow bags, to me just going down the street and grabbing some ziplocks is easier than ordering, waiting for them to arrive, testing, using, reordering etc.

Please check my thread "A report" for yield figures using this tek with 9 pints of whole organic brown basmati rice.

By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Saturday, January 05, 2002 - 10:35 pm: The Nook

Quote: Ya, I understand quote. Ever since I've bee on this board I noticed that about you; always racking yout brain to improve our methods of growing and always ready to lend a helping hand. You are much appreciated and respected around here....and it's well deserved.

Karna: Thanks for the reply. Strange how some people have the worst luck with contams and others have had great success transfering presterilized substrate from here to there. I think I'm going to try a few different method, your included. Think I'll build a glove box first. Now I'm going to head over to read your post. Thanks again.

Chronic007

By An guy (Boomer) on Sunday, January 06, 2002 - 04:05 am: The Nook

Hey Chronic- I been sitting here 24/7 looking at this thread since you started it....;)

I notice in the one pic that shows the cake still on a spacer, there appears to be some green thready stuff peeping out from under it, almost like one of those green paint scraping pads. Is there something under the cake in the spacer?

Have you tried cutting slits in the spacer for air transfer to the bottom of the cakes to see if that does anything to yield, not that you need anything done to your yields....

This is just interesting to me- no fanning, and you hear about the one-cake wonders, or coming back from a few days out of town, so obviously no fanning happening, and the person comes back to a tub full of booms.

Also, I don't see much side fruiting in those pix- seem to almost all be from the tops of the cakes.

This just seems different from what I've seen everywhere else.

I'm just trying to figure out the conditions that are giving you such great cakes....

Decide on a bulk tek yet? And of course, what would happen if you combined this with inner res/voodoo....my god, the mind staggers....:)

Speaking of which quote- I dont' know if anybody else mentioned it in that thread, but I'm wondering if a tube of a chosen diameter, sharpened at one end all the way around, like a large leather punch, might not be faster than drilling- still cutting the mycelium cleanly like a drill, poke the core out, poke another hole, poke the core out, etc.

By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Sunday, January 06, 2002 - 05:56 am: The Nook

An Guy: That's a pretty sharp eye you've got there but that's no string. Take a look at the lid just behind that one. What you're seeing is the green print of a bunch of fruit(kind of a cornocopia....not sure if that's correct spelling) that ball put on the jar lids. I have played around with the spacers to get some air in their but it doesn't seem to do much. As for the conditions of my cake, the equilibrium lies gently between a few things that until figured out were hampering my yeilds. First was the hole sizes in the lids. To small and they don't breath well to big and they dry out. Four perfectly spaced 1\8 in holes works wonders when the temp is kept at 76 degrees. You wouldn't believe how humid the jars stay inside if these few easily met conditions are kept. Also the dunk tek turned this from an O.K. tek into a great one. I dunk right after birth and until they're spent. Another thing believe it or not is to make sure that once they are in the jars that the jars' holes are not covered by sitting on a flat surface. My setup has them sitting on security screen door type shelves....you know the ones that that people have infront of their front doors. As for the top fruiting it's not really a tendency just a coincidence between all the posted pics. As for the bulk tek I'm going to try the 9'er tek with my 1\2 jars and also in a few autoclave bags. I'll keep everyone posted on my progress. Here are some more pics...hope they help.
mvc-319f
mvc-320f
mvc-322f
Take care and be safe.
Chronic007

By Mr. Tambourine Man (Tambourine_Man) on Sunday, January 06, 2002 - 06:40 am: The Nook

Do you keep the jar lids tight or loose?

By An guy (Boomer) on Sunday, January 06, 2002 - 08:38 am: The Nook

I'm gonna guess tight- he's using his holes to control exchange/evaporation, so you'd want them to be the only avenue for that.

To boot, loose lids, if you have to move a jar, that's asking for trouble in a quick, careless moment.

I might be wrong, just thought I'd give a guess.

Thanks tons for the info 007- I went out and got a box of quarts and am going to try this soon- gonna shoot the 1/2 pints this week. Think I'll try it with Indian, as I'm fixin to get a print or more in the next few days. That jar started pinning well invitro, so they seem suited to your method of psilomadness...

You really have an amazing system there.

I was going to just say, I know you got the factors all balanced, but what about voodoo, and bigger holes? Think it'd be worth it? more water to compensate, yet being able to make use of a larger air exchange....

By onediadem (Onediadem) on Sunday, January 06, 2002 - 10:56 am: The Nook

Do you use two peice lids with this tek, or solid lids? Once again, I know that this is common for alot here on the Nook, but, thanks for posting these breathtaking pics.
pj

By Dr. Cubesis III (Newbieshroomer) on Monday, January 07, 2002 - 06:42 pm: The Nook

Hey Chronic!

Accidentally used hatcher instead of you when I Posted my latest message. But my buddy copied your
tek with around 30 quarts containing dunked, colonized brf from tall quilted jelly jars.
And more...

Within an hour of placing jars in the chamber the humidity in them was HUGE!!! Just like a humidified glass aquarium looks with 100 percent humidity. Freakin great. You saved My friends bacon. This tek is the best I have come across yet. Jars take care of themselves. Dude, My friend really owes you for opening his eyes. This is going to be phenomenol.

He has been maintaining 75 degrees in his fridge chamber with no heating source. And he is trying to expand on this tek. Check out my latest post for details.

Maybe I should repost it on this thread, in case it is archived?

Onedia...

Dude, don't think it matters. What matters here is:

Dunking the cake for proper self contained humidity.

A riser to keep the cake from sitting in water puddles.

Proper ventilation, i.e. multiple holes bored into the lids for air exchange.

Temperature to keep the cakes at an ideal temperature.

A rack ( or something ) so the bottom holes are not blocked...

That seems to be it. It's so damn simple, it's scary...........

:)

By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Monday, January 07, 2002 - 08:22 pm: The Nook

Mr. Tambourine Man : The answer to your question was perfectly answered buy An Guy.

An guy: Am glad that people are going to give the quart jar method a try. I really think that people will fall in love with it since it has the benifits of a terrerium, with none of the maintainance. As for your jars just keep the right temp, I'm sure the indians should do fine, and please keep your progress updated on this thread so others can see the ease of this tek.

Onediadem : The lids are the typical two piece lids (rings and falt tops) The lids are screwed on tight though so that they are well sealed aside from the holes

Dr. Cubesis: Glad your friend is trying this tek I'm sure he'll love it. It's just amazing to how their breathing keeps the quart so well humidified. Just a quick note, make sure your holes are bored with a 1/8 in nail, it plays a pretty significant role in the equilibrium of the envirinment. Oh and where is the post of your buddy expanding on the tek, very interested in reading up on his progress. Keep us updated on this thread about yourbuddies progress for the benifit of others.

Peace Chronic007

By Karna (Karna) on Monday, January 07, 2002 - 10:44 pm: The Nook

Chronic
You're right. It is not adviseable to attempt a sterile grain transfer without a glove box/chamber of some kind.
I just use the oven. Works fine. Look at it this way. Where could contams come from? The grain is sterile, the jars are sterile, airborne contams - not if the air is warm and rising, the inside of the bags is sterile. That leaves the outside of the bags and yourself and the oven itself.

You can preheat the oven to 300F for an hour and let cool, but this is not really necessary. I just spray Lysol around and then turn it on to the lowest setting.
I wear an old dentist face mask. No idea if it actually does anything, but I do it anyway. Keeping the bags sealed, I spray the outside liberally with lysol, then place it on the oven door folded so the zip part is resting on the bag (lysoled) and not on the oven (which has also been lysol treated). I douse my hands in alcohol, let dry in the warm oven air for a few seconds, open one jar at a time, open bag halfway, empty jar in, close bag in one motion, then alcohol hands again.
While I have had contams, like I said in the previous post, none of them have been introduced at the transfer stage, rather they were the result of the grain not being cooked right (wet spot bacteria, ugly brown exuding liquid or mycopiss I think Quote calls it) or incubation extending too long due to grower indolence or apathy.

By Karna (Karna) on Monday, January 07, 2002 - 10:57 pm: The Nook

Just as a side note to Quote's note
I have not had problems with clumping in large bathes of rice since the grain can be worked and broken up through the bags. With the rice batches, I actually prepared them with a small verm layer a la PF (about half what Id use usually if I was growing out the jar) and dumped the verm in the bags too just so the dry verm would add a little space and breathiness/non-clumpiness to the bags. This worked great. If the rice is overcooked, more verm needs to be used since the rice will mush and clump a lot more.

The biggest problem with the first batch in my view was telling when the rice was done colonizing. At the end of a week, the rice was brought together (as the mycelium will do) but it was not entirely white by any means. At this point my dilemma was - birth and risk contam attack on uncolonized grain or incubate further and risk rotting or wet spot or other nasties. I opted for the first and cased the grain. As the grain fell into the tray, I could see that the grains had white on them but were not covered. A few could be detected with no visible white. No turning back now, so I cased and crossed my fingers. In exactly 5 days, the mycelium had burst out all over the tray and fruited like a champion, so I was ok, but it might also be ok to let it go for another day or two. However, I don't think the stuff will go completely white like it does in jars for whatever reason.

By The Silly Scybe Scribe (Toadstool_God) on Tuesday, January 08, 2002 - 01:13 am: The Nook

Hey cronic..I know you started this thread to get more info on growing bulk but if you don't mind breaking out the orange crayon for a second to help me I would really appreciate it. I recently innoculated nine jars filled with cooked brown rice with PF classic and have them in an incubator. I have been planning from the start to grow invitro so I have them constantly exposed to light. They are colanizing very nicely. Now that I have seen your post's though I want to birth mine into quart jars as well. Here's my question. Do you poke the holes in the lids like you do when you gonna innoculate half pints? And by a spacer to you just mean to have the jar lids off the ground to allow air exhange? Do you set the colonized cake directly on the quart jar lid? Also do you use wide mouth quart jars or what? Sorry bout all the questions but my cakes are colonizing fast and I need to get the materials to do this like you. Thanks.

By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Tuesday, January 08, 2002 - 04:25 am: The Nook

:)

By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Tuesday, January 08, 2002 - 04:28 am: The Nook

Dr. Cubesis: Keep us posted on your progress on this thread so others can follow this tek.

Karna..sounds like something I'll have to try. Thanks for the info...I'll keep you posted

Silly Scybe Scribe:

1. Yes poke the lids just like in the pf tek...infact all my lids are the same lids that I colonized my 1/2pint jars via pf tek

2. Check on top of the page for the archived sections of this post for good examples of risers in the jars. The risers keep the cakes from covering jar lid holes, also from sitting in pooled water ect... but the jars themselves must be raised so that the flat surface they sit on does not plug the holes.

3. My quart jars are tapered but untapared woulf be even better.

Here are some pics of the setup to help you out.


Here is a 1" piece of a 1 1/2" pvc pipe sitting on the jar lid just as it would with a cake on it

mvc-366f

Here is an example of a shelf I place my jars on so that the holes are not plugged

mvc-335f


Hope those pics help out a bit. Make sure and read back through the archived parts of this post for more detailed info. And keep us posted on your progress so that others can see it's ease.
Take care and be safe
Chronic007

P.S. Just completed 70 jars via the 9'er tek ...I'll keep you posted on this thread quote...thanks for the advice

By Dr. Cubesis III (Newbieshroomer) on Tuesday, January 08, 2002 - 07:48 pm: The Nook

70!?!?!


Woohoo! Things are going nicely on this end.

Quote mentioned in another post that he has never tried dunking grains by themselves, So for the benefit of anyone reading this...

tonight am taking 9 ( lost three from the batch to green gunk ) quarts FULL of colonized rye and putting them in half pints and tall jelly jars to knit, then will attempt dunking. Might have to add in about 10% brf to hold the grains together next time. But this time going with what my friend has ready, pure rye grain to dunk.

If the grain makes it thru the dunking ( doesn't fall apart or contam,) will attempt to load into waiting quart jars to grow invitro. * crossing fingers *

At this point dunked as well as sprayed dung/seed casings are on risers in pints in chamber. They have created a little humidity in thier jars which is fine, because they need less anyway. Followed
Chronics tek the day or so after I found this post.
Cakes are in a VERY humid enviroment. SHould be fun!

Chronic: A few quick questions and an observation :)

When you grow into quart jars, are you letting the colonizing brf see light all the way thru colonizing? Partially? At the end?

What do you do to initiate pinning, and at what point do you do it?

What kind of contam rates do you see once the cakes are in the ( quart ) jars? Any?


I love your chamber, gotta get my buddies pix developed. With his commercial freezer * LOL *
he doesn't hafta worry about myguyver stuff to
get the jars off a flat surface, thank god. My friend does enough work in this hobby for two people. And much like chronic when he started this post, only wants to make less work, with better results.

Would reccomend an old freezer to ANYONE wanting to grow cubensis... It's like a large, prebuilt, mushroom terrarium from heaven... What are you using Chronic? From here looks like a heavily converted fridge?

LOL! A while back was asking about cold shocking casings... then realized that night, freezer has a low setting, realized, it's A FREEZER!! LOL!!!
A fridge would prolly work better, could actually close the door without killing the cakes...!!

" keep us posted on your progress so
that others can see it's ease. "

He is not kidding here people. My friend grew out of three terrariums for awhile.. WAY to much work, though two were automated, there was still ALWAYS work to be done. He had humidifier problems ( getting decent humidity ) Perlite contamination that at one time claimed 16 cakes from the terrarium. ( that was horrible ) VERY depressing.

After he aqquired a freezer he wondered what to do with it? He thought casings, cakes, blah blah blah... With those, temperature must be maintained, Humidity must be maintained, with moisture throughout the entire chamber contams could creep in and easily spread when that big door opened. The cakes ( mostly grains ) smell..

What to do?

Granted, my friend has yet to grow mushies in this fashion, but he is well on his way with cakes on thier way to pinning and it looks so promising.

Invitro is a little expensive outright ( quart jars are not cheap ) but IMHO WELL worth it.

So far, but not limited to, the good points seem to be:

* Only have to regulate temp, not humidity. have a humififier blowing clean air in anyway so the air is at least fresh/humidified.

* Discovered that with fridge door closed, and humidifier on low pumping into the chamber, temp sits at EXACTLY 75 degrees, with NO heat source whatsoever.

* Smelly grains and cakes, WAY less to smell now.

* Contam risk seems FAR lower than my friend would ever have imagined.

* Humidity is self regulated in the jars, no messy, potentially stinky perlite to deal with. You can see it in the jars. Cakes LOOK healthier and happier than in crowded, terrariums.

* Less Work!! No Fanning, No Misting, no having to lift a drip shield to get at the shrooms, no knocking cakes over getting at other cakes.... In fact. This process is so self contained. Could leave for a week and not worry about it.
And that would be a first.

This is my friends future, thanks to chronic. Never imagined that things
would turn out to be as easy as they apparently are with this tek.. LOL! and I believe chronic came in here with this thread trying to make less work for himself!!!!! LOLOLOLOL!!!!


CHeers Chronic! A toast!!!

:)

newbieShroomer

By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Tuesday, January 08, 2002 - 08:50 pm: The Nook

Well Dr. Cubesis III I'm glad things are going well for your friend. That fridge idea sounds great. Can't wait to see your results dunking the rye grains; I really hope they do well as your results will probably be a glimpse into the future of dunking my 9'er tek jars.

"When you grow into quart jars, are you letting the colonizing brf see light all the way thru colonizing? Partially? At the end?"

Answer - I give 24 hour light to my jars from first day of inoculation to the last fruiting of the cakes in the quarts


"What do you do to initiate pinning, and at what point do you do it?"

Answer - The cakes beggin to pin in the 1/2 pint jars because of the light and the PF classic strain loves to pin in the jars. I know it's ok to dunk cakes with a few pins, but for some reason I had a consistantly higher number of mushrooms per cake when I scraped the cakes right after birth before we dunk them. Make sure you scrape the entire cake before every dunk, you'll get much better results that way

"What kind of contam rates do you see once the cakes are in the ( quart ) jars? Any?"

Answer - Very low if any. Out of last 70 jars only two contaminated after flushing once,(the contamination was cut off with a steak knife and the cakes continued a happy 3 more flushes with no problems. Just check your cakes as your scraping them before the dunk and as your drying them afterwards and don't be afraid to cut the hell out of them. I've bored half way through cakes removing contams and they keep on flushing. Remember that each cake is isolated so you don't have to worry about the contamination spreading. All my cakes begin losing the contamination battle at about the fifth flush.

"This process is so self contained. Could leave for a week and not worry about it.
And that would be a first. "

These were all the goals I was trying to accomplish in designing this tek. A maintainance free mini terrerium that isolates contamination....what could be better?

I would really like to see pics of your quarts in action as I would be able to help much more if I could see your cakes and your setup. Everything sounds to be moving right along just fine though just make sure they have light so they'll pin.

Cheers to your future success
Chronic007

By Dr. Cubesis III (Newbieshroomer) on Tuesday, January 08, 2002 - 09:44 pm: The Nook

Yea, I had better get some light in there....
Not enough, but there is also not enough time in the day!!

As for pix.. Everyone asks me that :(
No dice. Not yet anyway. Sure My friend has plenty of pix.. Pix ranging from a shroom with an upside down cap growing on it's cap, to the freezer chamber loaded with casings, to individual pix of some half and full pints with amazing flushes.


He is scared to process them... He has gotten some good advice on the general board... But he turns yellow when his girl talks about developing them...

Will work on it though, would love your input on
the cakes already in jars, as well as the brownie sized casings in jars...
Thanks for the great answers to muh questions, helps a LOT

Tonight will do grain transfers to smaller jars for knitting, as well as setting up some karo jars

And by mond... What am I thinking? Don't even need karo jars... Been printing by the foot in a special container, er, my buddy has ;0). Some wax papers have a couple dozen prints per.. don't even need to wait for karo, just got used to it I guess!! LOL! So much on the plate, so little time....

:)

You rock chronic, this thread is my flavorite at the Nook to date....

By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Wednesday, January 09, 2002 - 02:33 am: The Nook

Dr. Cubesis III I would really like to see some pics but never at the expense of your saftey. I always say better safe than sorry and unless you have access to a digital cam why risk it. Thanks for the compliments and as for your questions...you remind me too much of myself! It's the only way to learn right!? Well I'm keeping my eye on my 9'er jars and I'll keep you and all who read this thread informed. Oh ya, I went into some more detail on my setup if your interested in reading about it on Onediadem's post called "Quart jars chronic007 style,Fruiting chamber, temp ideas, HELP!!!" so stop by and read if your interested....I think your input would also be of much help since this grower is trying to devise a quart jar setup.
Take care and keep your quart jar progress updated.

Take care and be safe
Chronic007

By Dr. Cubesis III (Newbieshroomer) on Wednesday, January 09, 2002 - 06:51 pm: The Nook

I saw OneDiaems post :)

I will definitely stop there, read the post.
he needs to devise a growing chamber for the
room before anything else! LOL! Read that stuff about your fans and lights... Wish I had some electrical knowledge, but I am more likely to burn my friends house down!

To solve the light problem, well, last night there was no time really, so just left the freezer door
open enough so the interior light would come on.

But there was time for my friend to work with jars.
He took a few more of his colonized birdseed and dung 12x12s out of the fridge where they had
been soaking in ziplocks and sitting by the oven
and transfered them to pint jars, with risers of course. As of morning the jars were plenty humidified inside. Casings in jars.. LOL! got around 60 of those now! Uhg, sounds so easy! But there was ALL Kinds of additional work.
He replaced the drill bit he was using with 1 1/8th, just a hair bigger than the bit he was already using. While he worked with casings, his girl set up another 20 jars with brf... To tired to sterilize them, will do today.

He ALSO took three quarts of fully colonized rye grain, sprayed a bunch of lysol around, and filled the colonized jars with water, put in fridge, this morning he dumped the water and put them back in fridge. Tonight he will disribute the dunked grain to half pints and hope for the best. He will then stick those half pints in cabinet with a nice warm 85 degrees and pray it doesn't contam.

Whew! Thats the update! Hopefully will have all this going soon so I can take tams tek idea and get to working on it by the weekend :)

Take care all!

By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Wednesday, January 09, 2002 - 09:20 pm: The Nook

Good work....he definetly has a lot to look forward to. Keep us informed.
Chronic007

By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Friday, January 11, 2002 - 06:58 am: The Nook

Well, bad news. All 9'er tek jars were a complete failure. They looked good after cooked, after sterilized, and after inoculation, but as the first few days went by they turned into a soggy mess. I didn't know exactly how dry the rice had to be when place into the jars (was just going off the 9'er tek pics) but now I assume they were holding too much water and it just evened out throughout the substrate as the time passed. Failure is the best way to learn so I'm trying again tomorrow now that I have something to base off of. Let you know how it goes.
Chronic007

By Hatcher (Hatcher) on Friday, January 11, 2002 - 08:16 am: The Nook

Sorry to hear about your loss Cronic. But check this out--buried my great aunt yesturday and watched my girlfriend's cat die right in front of her at the vet's today. Got to dig the hole in red clay for that one. Thngs could be worse my man!:)

Tried casing w/organics early on, failed, and haven't tried since. I will, just ain't...
'Ppreciate the post. I think now I'll buy a dozen jelly jars to try whole cooked rice substrate, rather than use my last dozen wide-mouths. Be better subjects for my first Karo jar(s), don't ya think?:)
And the Karo's a cookin' I think. So Cronic, what ratio of water to rice didn't work, and what ya gonna try...? I was sorta under the impression that 1 1/2 part water to one part rice would do it.
Later!
Hatcher

By quote: (Quote) on Friday, January 11, 2002 - 02:26 pm: The Nook

bummer, chronic.
does sound too wet,
always the bane of whole grains.
try just a little more water than rice,
say 250 ml of water to 200 ml of rice.

By Dr. Cubensis (Shroomzilla) on Friday, January 11, 2002 - 05:39 pm: The Nook

Dunno About the 9er tek, waiting for chronic to figure it out before I pass any of that on to my friend.... Try, try, try again CHronic...

But I DO have updated info on his progress, and it is good.

WHen my buddy decided to start invitro, he took around 6 cakes ( who had already flushed at least once ) from the 20 gal ter and transferred them to quarts. Looks like every one is pinning, and an older cake he found hiding in in the back even has a four inch long shroom winding around itself with a couple of others ( smaller ones ) vying for space, though this one was already starting to pin prior to invitro placement... Shrooms growing in a jar...

What a pretty sight.

As I said, the rest of the 6 are pinning well. The tall jelly jars I birthed, dunked and set directly into quart jars seem to be fuzzing nicely still, albeit no pins as of yet, but surely with the right conditions ( which Hopefully my friend has now ) they will start pinning any day now...

Casings in jars... Whoa! Not sure what the hell is going on with them. They are almost completey fuzzy, brilliant white around the edges where they were cut, and SEEM to be forming hypal knots, though without a magnifying glass my friend says he cannot be certain at this point. But I will be gone the weekend,
and let everyone know how things are with the usual monday update post :)

So far, Chronics tekkie here still seems like the way to go. Everything is going as planned and even stuff that wasn't really planned ( casings in jars )
looks like it might turn positive. Thinking that the dung, the seed, and the jar all rolled together might yield up some amazing results. Either that, or My friend will get home one day and find them all contamed, lying in a puddle of sludge * gulp! *...

Other than that, just making measurements to go to home depot to pick stuff up for my friend to try Tam Man's terrarium idea..

He Woke up this morning with almost $200 new dollars on his nightstand he said... NOw where the hell did that come from?!?!?! Lucky bastard... Or maybe, the hard work fairy dropped it off to him, cause she thought he deserved it.

LOL!!! C-ya!

Aww crap, forgot to update on the dunked grains...
Ok, 24 jars of dunked grain. Dunked in quarts as anyone following this already knows. Sitting in cabinet set at not quite 85 degrees but most jars BRILLIANT white, knitting nicely, and by monday friend might transfer them to quart jars if he
thinks they are ready to be birthed. So far, no signs of contam, ill health or any other problems with the cakes, he is very eager to see how they perform invitro should they continue their great health and progress...

Peace

Shroomzilla, formerly newbieShroomer

By ShrooMaster (Shroomaster) on Friday, January 11, 2002 - 09:18 pm: The Nook

ok heres my 2 cents:
to keep the cake from bunching up the exhaust holes goto you local Dominos ® and get those three legged plasti things. cut the 'table' short to maxxmize fruiting space and increase stability pvc pipe would work, but if you dont have the power tools tis can damn near be done with nail clippers. call it the macgyver method if you will lol.

elevating the jars require stability as well. at first it thought about getting a pie pan or something and molding Silly Putty ® aroundthe lid aviodin the holes and sticking it there. instead gto walmart and buy a beaded car seat. this should work fine as it would only need 2 holes tocirculate air. this way allows for at least that.this would also allow you to set the whole lot into tub for qick moving if needed. personally, this all sounds a ll too pro for me. what looks impressive to you and works great could shock a jury. however the results are undenyable so if your interested there it is.

By Dr. Cubensis (Shroomzilla) on Friday, January 11, 2002 - 09:35 pm: The Nook

Hey Shroomaster!

First of all, thanks for the advice, second..

"what looks impressive to you and works great could shock a jury." I already know this, please don't bring stuff that gives me bad vibes up...

Would REALLY appreciate that.

* Cakes should not block exhaust holes, they are reknitting in half pints taken from the quarts they were spawned in.

* Thanks man, REALLY like the " dominoes Idea " BUt have been going with the pvc so far...

* Not growing out of a tub ShrooMaster, niether my friend nor chronic :)

Seriously, please don't bring up the knives that hang above ALL of our heads for the most part..
At least not to me. My friend knows the risks,
and is has decided to push forward anyway...

He doesn't keep much around the house, in fact he has " another " place where most everything lives
that he pays cash rent for.. He tries to cover his tracks carefully.... All a person can do is try.

By Karna (Karna) on Friday, January 11, 2002 - 11:54 pm: The Nook

Chronic
I am sorry to hear of your 9er failure.
Here is my stab at your solution.
Firstly, I'm hoping you got the right kind of rice namely, organic long grain brown rice.
The appropriate ratio for this variety of rice is 2 cups water to one cup rice. This yields a cooked product that is too wet for our purposes but is recommended for eating (by me at least), so the water is reduced to 1.5 cups per 1 cup rice. This ratio WILL work if your rice is of the above-mentioned variety and of a good quality. One to one ratio will yield a rice that is underdone or very al dente which will prolong colonization. Less water than rice means your rice won't be very cooked at all. You do not want either of these situations.
The most important variable to ensure proper cooking of the rice (on any other grain) is heat. Bring the water and rice just to a boil and then reduce heat , COVER and simmer. Be careful not to turn the heat down too low as this will result in the top layer being cooked and wet mass underneath. Be careful not to turn it too high as the bottom will brown or worse, burn. Between the two, it is preferable to have a little excess browning (not burning) than having it wet and soggy in the bottom. All stoves are different so you will have to play around a little, but on most, the LOW setting should work fine for simmering.
Second factor is time. As far as this goes, most varieties of rice will be done in 20-30 mins, but it is always a good idea to follow the manufacturer recommendations. Lundberg for eg, recommends 50 min simmer. This is what I use when I use Lundberg and it works fine.
That should take care of the cooking part of it. Once cooked, you want to handle it gently so it does not mush up. Rake it gently with a spoon or fork till you have got most the rice off the bottom of your pot. This is the time to assess cookedness/wetness. Try a bite to make sure it is done. Now if you feel it is too wet, you can just leave it for a bit and excess moisture will evaporate.
Otherwise, you can always add verm till you reach the desired consistency and water content. Verm will turn even the soggiest mush into a workable and successful result. It has righted some shockingly wet masses for me. Just once, I forgot about the rice altogether for about 2 hours. Not burnt since the heat is LOW, but VERY nut brown. Worked fine.
It's really not hard at all. I feel sure you will succeed and I wish you luck.

By quote: (Quote) on Saturday, January 12, 2002 - 04:00 pm: The Nook

ever try 'instant' rice ?
i wonder....

By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Sunday, January 13, 2002 - 12:49 am: The Nook

Hey guys, sorry about the late replies; was off on a camping trip enjoying the fruits of my labor. Great trip although I had to do a bit of babysitting for a few newbies but it only made me stronger.

Hatcher: Sorry about your bad day man, that sucks and we all feel your pain. My day (bad 9'er jars) wasn't really bad at all just educational. That would be cool if you tried full brown rice too so then we could swap info and both gain from the help others post here. I used the ratio of 1 to 1.5 rice to water but I think the heat is where I went wrong. Going to play around with the heat to try and dial it in correctly.

Quote: Thanks for the advice I'm trying again ASAP so stay tuned, I'm sure I'll need some more assistance.....I'll keep you updated.

Dr. Cubensis: Thanks for the update on your buddies setup. I love how he is always playing with different types of methods. Hope the cakes and casings in the jars are still on the right track....I'm awaiting your news with good hopes. Keep us updated on the rye and I'll do the same with the 9'er tek attempts. Keep up the good work.

Shroomaster: Thanks for the input. There are always a 1000 ways to do anything. My setup is dialed in fine how it is but I'm sure someone will be able to use your advice. On another note I agree with Dr. "C" ..... we all know the danger that surrounds us so please keep those comments to yourself. Thanks again

Karna: First off I hope I have the right rice. It's the same rice I've always used on my cakes (Brown Basmati rice from India) and it does say long or short on the package. I used the ratio of rice to water that you mentioned but I thinking the actual cooking or heat is where I went wrong. I will definetly follow your advice on my next attempt and I will kepp you informed. Thanks alot for the descriptive answers to my problems.

Well I'll keep you all informed looking forward to solving more problems with you all. Take care and be safe

Chronic007

By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Monday, January 14, 2002 - 12:16 am: The Nook

Well here is the fifth flush of a few of the cakes I displayed earlier in this thread. Not as awsome as the first few flushes and they definetly took longer to fruit but they're still giving it their all. They also straggle in at very different times when they get this old and wise. Bless their little hearts. I hate dumping cakes after they've worked so hard. Anyways someone asked what my contam rates were and how many flushes I got so here are the fifth flush girls.

1
2
3

Take care.
Chronic007

By quote: (Quote) on Monday, January 14, 2002 - 02:25 am: The Nook

still looking good.

By An guy (Boomer) on Monday, January 14, 2002 - 03:23 am: The Nook

wish I was your dad, so I could be all proud of you....

By Imok Urok2 (Imok) on Monday, January 14, 2002 - 06:50 am: The Nook

Go ahead Boomer...be proud anyway :)

By Eatyualive (Eatyualive) on Monday, January 14, 2002 - 07:29 am: The Nook

i am very impressed chronic. but it sounds like you have too much work to do. i rotate about 120 jars at intervals. usually weekly cycles and i case or make flatcakes out of about 15-25 jars a week. this fills my quota on space. you flushes on the cakes look awesome but if you are looking for less work i would suggest some kind of casing. my personal preferences are in order flatcake, 50/50, then coir.
also in regards to quotes comment about the downfalls of the bulktek. i never tried it with oven bags. i always used polyethelene bags with filter patches obtainable for 59 cents each from www.mushroompeople.com. they have a filter patch so polyfil isn't necessary. also i just tape them togehter with masking tape. it works well and i have fully colinized 24 jars worth of substrate in 7 days. after that i allow it to strengthen hyphal knotting for one more week then make into a flatcake or case. i have had a few problems casing from the bulk tek.
1. because it retains more moisture than jars do.
2. usually when i add the casing layer the extra moisture causes contams.
i hope this helps. please email me and i would be interested to hear some of your outlooks on your methods.
[email protected]

By mr. mista (Mistabud) on Monday, January 14, 2002 - 07:37 am: The Nook

Hey chronic...those are 5th flushes? God damn man, your grow is nothing short of amazing.

How much fruit would you say you harvest in the life of 1 of your cakes?? On average?

By Dr. Cubensis (Shroomzilla) on Monday, January 14, 2002 - 05:23 pm: The Nook

Ok!!!

Happy Monday all!!!

Geez... That " shock the jury " thing has been going thru my head all weekend... That post sure got my friend to thinking.... And not very happy thoughts. He is certainly NOT prison material. He doesn't consider " drugs "
especially organics criminal, but forgets about the rest of the world....
Sure played havoc with his weekend...

Ah well....

On the flipside. As usual my friend has forsaken a social life for the most part in his quest to be a " mad scientist " and this is what he covered over the weekend...

Chronic. Looks Great! Love that fifth flush!! Turns out the tall quilted jelly jars my friend picked up from the swap meet were actually pints!! His girlfriend told him this, he did't believe her, they measured, and Voila! Pints. EVERY one of them pinning nicely! it's a jungle in there. The terrarium pints ( in the glass 20 gal ) seem to be flushing a little harder
that the in vitro stuff, but the invitro stuff is looking swell all the same.

It's a beautiful thing to look at really.

Among the jelly jars, My friend had also taken 2 wide mouth tapered pints, cut them in half, and threw them in 4 quart jars. These 4 are experiencing MASSIVE
flushes, totally unexpected results. Might not even work with half pints. The TALL pints are great, and the full pints seem to flush wonderfully when cut in half, first harvest is this evening, will see then how hard it is to get a halved pint bristling with mushies out of a quart jar.

Next on the agenda, dunked/misted dung/seed casings invitro... Bitchin. Might just hafta write a new tek. The pinning on these looks unbelievable ( well, looks like nice even pinning on a casing, but in a jar. ) and looks like it might take off.
Humidity in the cased jars is dandy, the rhizo has long overtaken the dung, and within the week my friend might be taking pictures of successful casings grown in-vitro. It's amazing to behold, and my friend thought they would contam long before they started to pin... But success is just on the horizon, so it seems.

Ahhhh the dunked rye. Totally surpassing all expectations. Half pints have knitted beautifully. Even with the verm on top, and upside down, the jars
are literally, GLOWING brilliant white, with HUGE droplets of condensation in them on the glass. The newly formed cakes almost seem to be " swimming " after thier dunk and introduction to half pints. Tonight or tommorrow at the latest ( depends on the energy levels ) these will transfer to fruiting chamber in quarts. Keeping fingers crossed. Never expected this idea to make it far either. But it seems those rye berries LOVED the dunk, and are flourishing.

On another note chronic :) Bah~! don't worry about the poor cakes who work so hard to produce for you. Just bury them somewhere instead of throwing them away. Gives them a chance to do something on their own.. My friend CANNOT throw them in the trash. Makes him feel bad. He buries every one of his spent cakes near a small stream under a large tree. Numerous wild mushrooms already grow there so he is hoping the cubensis will like it there as well. Only heavy contams go straight to the dumpster.

Eautualive, ( love yer name! ) My friend considers going with the flat cakes, but doesn't want to deal with the humidity issues. He knows it is easy to set up. But he doesn't want to keep the inside of his main, large fruiting chamber,
wet. Jars ARE a lot of work, but kept in a fairly dry atmosphere, and easy to
make disapear without being ruint if needed. Pro's and con's of ( bulk ) flat cake tek anyone??

Anything else? uhm..... yea, all kinds of crazy NEW experiments were began this weekend, in addition to the ones above. Some of it ludicrous, some not. No time for updates on that at the moment. Top Secret and on the down-low ya gotta realize! LOL! Really tho, as soon as my friend gets a handle on his BRAND new experiments, he will share with me, who in turn will share with you...

Shroomzilla

By Swilly mixalogist (Swilly) on Monday, January 14, 2002 - 09:50 pm: The Nook

FUCKIN BEAUTIFUL BROTHER MAN !!!!!

By ShrooMaster (Shroomaster) on Tuesday, January 15, 2002 - 06:21 pm: The Nook

well guys hate to burst your bubble but i can say what i like. funny that no one else commented on that particular sentence. if it was soooooooo offensive im sure it would have got erased. and if all the ppl here growing knew about it, why the fuck is it bad to bring up? does that make it any worse? lets stem this burning ass paranioa. you cant fucking post on a board like this and then shit cause someone says the obvious. or is this personal? cause if it is spill and well see wtf the story is. did piss you off with my not wanting underage ppl here? what is it?

By ggg (Ggg) on Tuesday, January 15, 2002 - 08:31 pm: The Nook

ShrooMaster

Let me say what I like-
I am getting quite weary of you.

By An guy (Boomer) on Tuesday, January 15, 2002 - 09:50 pm: The Nook

most respectuflly ggg, he does have two points- the law is a fact of life, and to ignore it because it makes some uncomfortable does them nor anyone else a service; and younguns coming here- well, it's gonna happen, and I'd rather they came here than some places I see out there relating to this area of endeavor, but I'm still not really ecstatic about it.

you have a point too- shroomaster, sometimes you're more of a shrewmaster, and I would enjoy your thought-provoking posts more if you could relax some...

By Imok Urok2 (Imok) on Tuesday, January 15, 2002 - 10:10 pm: The Nook

Hey ShrooMaster,
Why do you think everybody is out to get you?
I haven't seen anybody give you anything but love
All that anyone did was make a request of you so
they would not be uncomfortable, not try to shut
you up or out.

In the above posts Dr. Cubensis
said "thanks", "please" and "Would REALLY
appreciate that."
No flame there.
<quote>
Hey Shroomaster!

First of all, thanks for the advice, second..

"what looks impressive to you and works great could shock a jury." I already know this, please don't bring stuff that gives me bad vibes up...

Would REALLY appreciate that.
<end quote>

Then Chronic007 said thanks twice.
<quote>
Shroomaster: Thanks for the input. There are always a 1000 ways to do anything. My setup is dialed in fine how it is but I'm sure someone will be able to use your advice. On another note I agree with Dr. "C" ..... we all know the danger that surrounds us so please keep those comments to yourself. Thanks again
<end quote>

Please look inward to see where this anger is comming from.
I don't normally see this from someone who has
tuned into themselves, except when they are doing
things that keep them seperated from themselves.
From what I see you are a valued member of this
myco-cosm.
Be Happy Man :)
Peace

By ggg (Ggg) on Tuesday, January 15, 2002 - 10:28 pm: The Nook

You make good points as usual boomer-
thanx man

Apologies all around-
I was really responding to Shroomasters body of work not that particular post. I had no right to be so 'holier than thou' in my corespondence.

Shroomaster, I'm sorry for the way I responded to your post. My attitude was uncalled for and I regret it.

Please forgive my attitude.
It has more than likely been a bad day for both of us.
Thanks and good luck-

By quote: (Quote) on Tuesday, January 15, 2002 - 11:17 pm: The Nook


Quote:

well guys hate to burst your bubble but i can say what i like.



wrong.
you were warned,
now you're history.

By Dr. Cubensis (Shroomzilla) on Wednesday, January 16, 2002 - 01:52 am: The Nook

Thank you very much for protecting my virtue Imok. * Deep Bow *

Thank you Quote for... Well, just being you! * LOL*

Shroomaster, Why are you so defensive and ready to lash out?
Your negativity has been grating on my nerves for a lot more posts than this particular thread. I try to avoid you if possible but you came to me this time.

Get a grip man, try and at least ACT like a human being.

ggg, with you I am agreed/100%


Well, this is about the end of my postings to this thread. My buddy birthed
around 16 cakes ( 16 first flush cakes ) that were taken from there far in vitro, got all excited about it...

And then....

The birdseed and dung flat-cakes FINALLY took off. And how. Oh my god. I Praise the lord and all of his creations. For he has given my friend miracles.

Never seen anything like it.... Have a feeling my friend Will be casing a lot more grains with dung from this point on....

But on the matters at hand... In vitro! Updates on progress made.

Last night friend and his girl ended up working late hours, from about 7 pm straight thru midnight with his multiple various projects. Approx 20 half pints of cased, dunked rye were fully knitted and moved to quarts. Another 5 into the terrarium and a few more in some experimental grow chambers the Mad Hatter has created for shits and giggles... Out of all of those, lost only two of the dunked 1/2 pints in the process, they looked weakly colonized, and smelled sour.
SO far, so good, now just playing the waiting game to view and weigh the flushes.

Also, the birdseed/dung casings in the jars... Excellent. Pinning is occuring from the dung side of the rectangles, pinning is rampant, and looks as though the dunked dung cased seed will pull thru invitro. 20 square feet, ( not all invitro ) so far, NO contams whatsoever. Crazy, but true. The problem seems now that it will be virtually impossible to get the casings out of the jars. Gonna hafta break the cake up it seems. Because if growth continues as it is going... Mushrooms will fill virtually every free space in the quart jar when they are grown out. So Splendid on the size, space, quantity, and ease of the flush, but getting them out of the jars will prove tricky.

Tall pint jelly jars. These were nice, emptied about 6 of these. Each cake had approx 4 or 5 shrooms on them, average weight ( wet of course ) 10 grams, average weight of the large ones ( approx 1 on each cake ) 20 grams. Way cool.
But, not a lot of pinning, prolly my fault somehow..

On the other side of that, birthed the 4 pints that were cut in half and
they were Spectacular. Still doesn't seem to flush as hard as the terrarium
does, but fine to look at all the same. Getting them out of the jars was TOUGH.
Ended up using a pair of surgical dentist tweezers to pluck the shrooms from the cake, which was time consuming and even quite difficult when the stems are large. This seemed to work nicely.

Anything else?? No, thats prolly it. think am done with this thread for the most part. When I type these long threads often feel as though I am talking to myself. It motivates me to get my friend to work harder thru working hard. If that makes any sense. But it seems that my friend is really the only one really interested in mastering invitro ( not hard, but lots to experiment with ) who doesn't already know it all :)

Thanks a lot CHronic for your help. Great experience brother, you taught me a lot... As I am just a newbie feeling his way in the dark... * grin *

On to other things for my friend I think, in-vitro now has it's own place in his growing, And me-thinks ground Mycellia, straw, dung, possibly in vitro, is the next new ground to tread... Take care all,

shroomzilla

By onediadem (Onediadem) on Wednesday, January 16, 2002 - 03:35 am: The Nook

Hey Doc,
I enjoy your readings, and your not just talking to yourself here. I just dont have anything of value to add, so I do alot of reading. Please dont feel as if your posts have been in vain, I know I am not alone in looking forward to your updates.
Keep on posting,
pj

By Brettiejams (Brettiejams) on Wednesday, January 16, 2002 - 04:07 am: The Nook

I swear that ShrooMaster sounded a lot like Jared.

Maybee they are twins.

By Chronic007 (Chronic007) on Wednesday, January 16, 2002 - 04:22 am: The Nook

An guy, Imok, Mr. Mista,Swilly mixalogist: Thanks for the compliments guys

Eatyualive: Thanks for the advice my friend....I've seen pics of your results and any advice comes well respected. I will definetly try flat cakes some day but my growing area has many limitations and this is exactly why I've developed my quart jar style. I know my work load is very high and that is why I started this thread....I'm in the process of ordering some outoclave bags so I can give the bulk tek a shot...any info or advice?

Shroomaster: I think quote said you were booted, and if you were than I'm quite sure it was in the overall interest of the board to keep the general vibe at such a pleasant helpful and non-offensive level. This board has some really amazing qualities. But on another note I hate to see you go as maybe Imok Urok2's post may have made some sense to you and induced a change in attitude. All the while godspeed!

Imok Urok2: Your post was great. This thread also is a wealth of good info and was about to be ruined by a flame-a-thon until your beautifully simple post tore that possibility a new one.

GGG: Your apology and your humbleness say many great things about your character. You, your attitude, and those people like you, are the reasons this board is such a wonderful place.

Dr. Cubensis: Thanks again for the update. I'm glad to see that a majority of your buddies projects were rewarding. Both of you are massing quite a bit of knowledge through experience and your self title of newbie is very soon to disapear as it already has in my eyes "Thanks a lot CHronic for your help. Great experience brother, you taught me a lot... As I am just a newbie feeling his way in the dark... * grin" - You're welcome Dr.C it was more than a pleasure working with you and I can't wait to expand into new growing methods, 'cause by then your brain will be ripe with knowledge and our positions will be reversed. I too am nearly finished with this thread and I hope our postings will be beneficial to someone in the future. I will keep the thread updated with my 9'er tek (full grain rice) birthed to quart jars as I couldn't find any instances of this on the Nook to date and then we can lay this tired thread to rest. Take care friend and I'll keep an eye out for your posts.

Onediadem: Glad to hear others a gaining from this thread. Keep you updated on the 9'er tek happenings.

Well folks.....I'm very impressed to see the quality of this board's overall attitude prevail again in the most mature way I could have imagined when threatend by those who aren't quite developed in their respect.

I'll be back with the progress of my 9'er tek jars but until then take care and be safe!

Chronic007

By ggg (Ggg) on Wednesday, January 16, 2002 - 10:12 am: The Nook

Thanks 007
Thanks Quo
Thanks all

By Dr. Cubensis (Shroomzilla) on Thursday, January 17, 2002 - 06:37 pm: The Nook

Awwww, You can feel the in here!!!

:)

By Christopher Marlowe (Kitmarlowe) on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 06:34 am: The Nook

Hey all. This is great reading. I have been looking for something like this for a while, mainly: what to do after PF tek? There seem to be SO MANY variables after this simple begining that it gets so confusing.

Dr. C, could you write up a summary of how you made your "birdseed and dung flat-cakes"?

Also, I have had success using ZooDoo (www.ZooDoo.com), mixing it with vermiculite and pine chips (lie for a hamster cage), and innocultaing this casing with colonized half-pints.

So, any conclusions reached?