Dunk when pinning invitro?

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Growing Invitro?  -    
Contams after Dunking  -    

By jared (Jared112) on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 09:13 pm:

I just wanted to know if I should Dunk my PF cakes when I birth them or should I dunk it after the first flush? Which would be better for the 'shrooms and how long will dunking slow them down?

By Lichen (Lichen) on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 09:32 pm:

dunking will slow them for a week, give or take a day or so. Why not birth some directly into the fruiting chamber, and dunk some? Then you can compare notes

By jared (Jared112) on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 09:43 pm:

Ok sounds good to me, Maybe I'll try that. Here is a pic that I just took of them, I have been incubating them for 7 days now, and They are all about 60-80% colonized, so I took the tape off of the jars and am going to let them get some air.
11 jars after 7 days
I hope to have some 'shrooms in about 2.5 weeks if I birth them next monday. I hope that the damn mycelium speeds up a little.

By quote: (Quote) on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 10:46 pm:

the tall jars are a bit slower,
i doubt you'll have shrooms that soon.
but you still need to be patient.
i've never known dunking to set cakes back any, in fact i've seen new growth within 48 hours of dunking before.
dunking usually is not needed until after 1st flush, unless the cakes have dried out for some reason, such as excessively slow colonization.

By Lichen (Lichen) on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 11:54 pm:

Well, what I have noticed is that
a) dunking itself takes time
b) the dunked cakes take 48-72 hours _or more_ to get fuzzy and start pinning again.

If cakes are dunked right after birth, they are set back a minumum of 72 hours: 12-24 hours dunk time, plus 24-48 hours to lose the blue from the dunk and fuzz up again, while some pins that are present at birth can die in the dunk. So at birth I don't recommend dunking, because they're fine and double-end casing is plenty of water. )Unless the cakes for some reason are dry at birth, which doesn't happen unless something has gone wrong)

By quote: (Quote) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 12:14 am:

i never had pins die from dunking either.
and just because the cake is setting there apparently doing nothing doesn't mean it was
'set back'.
that term is more correctly used to describe what happens when cakes are ripped up for casing. there is a real set-back as the mycellial network must repair the damage.
there is no such damage from dunking.
it would be more accurate to say that there is a 48-72 hour lag between dunking and the first visible effects.

By Lichen (Lichen) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 12:25 am:

ok. I've only been dunking, as a matter of fact, since June, and I never heard of it before that. Of course, the sole source I had was Fanaticus' site; thats where I found the link to your frozen board.
I have heard it said that you can dunk a cake with 1" pins. Now one of the last B+ cakes I fruited had a shroom about an inch and a half long...I birthed it and the shroom died while others pinned up and grew. This is just an example of how delicate pins are in my experience.

Well, I'm learning :0)

By quote: (Quote) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 12:29 am:

pins are very delicate, and merely touching them while moving them to dunk can kill them.
i'd normally not dunk pins that large,
as the risk of damage is so high.
but it could be done,
if one were very careful.

By Lichen (Lichen) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 12:40 am:

Hmmmm. OK. Perhaps I'm being too rough on them. I use the jars for dunking..maybe they got banged up, and that's why my pins don't like to be dunked. I dunno. I usually only dunk cakes that look like they need some serious moisture, fast. I never heard PF recommend dunking; he says double-ended casing is enough to supply all the water a cake needs. Personally I find that's usually the case, especially if you keep the casing really wet. Then it's a balance that needs to be struck between a good moist casing and so much water that you get striped shrooms

By quote: (Quote) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 02:14 am:

different strokes for different folks.
dunking was originally advocated by me for use with invitro tek, where no real double-end casing is possible.
it also avoids the time needed for the mycellia to colonize the vermiculite.
it's not the only way to hydrate a cake by any means.
but it does work and it does the job well.
i'm still experimenting with additives,
i hope to eventually find something i can add to lower the contam rates,
and i'm still experimenting with nutritious dunks, as in rice milk.
it's a very new tek,
still needs perfecting,
but it shows great promise.

By jared (Jared112) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 02:29 am:

Ok Quote don't be inventing every kind of tech that there is, save some for me to come up with.

By Lichen (Lichen) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 02:36 am:

all you have to do is come up with something new, something nobody's ever tried, something so brilliant nobody can touch it, and you'll earn your place in history

By jared (Jared112) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 03:40 am:

I will All I have to do is wait for my little ones to grow up so that I can make some spore prints, then I'll have enough spore solution to do all the tests and experiments that is needed. I'm still saying that I can have some fruit off of these jars in 2.5 weeks. Since I got at least 9 jars, I will have 3 birthed into the fruiting chamber double ended casing tech, then I will use 3 more and drill a whole in them and fill them with sterile verm, then the other 3 I will dunk a birth. Then the last 2 I think I will try to fuit them standard PF TEK. I will document the results and add them to my vault of 'shroom harvesting techniques.

By Cragith Kilbonith (Kilborn) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 04:33 am:

pins that are over 3/4 of a inch thick start to get hollow so there is a good chance if the pins are over 3/4 of a inch it could die.but iv noticed also that dunking then birthing does take longer. seems as the next 24 hrs its trying to recover, i think just birthing it is faster. this was noted by my pints i had, not sure if its slower to produce fruit on pints.....(might have been just cause i was impatient on my first grow?). hopefully you get fruit off thoes in 2 1/2 weeks. it will be damn close, keep the jars at 85* and you might just make it.

By quote: (Quote) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 10:52 am:

i hate it when people draw unscientific conclusions based on little to no data,
and try to generalize their little 3-4 cake experiments into a doctrine.
i've prolly dunked more than anyone any where,
and the dunk does not slow down fruiting in any way.
in fact, it speeds up additional flushes.
some body prove me wrong.

By Lichen (Lichen) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 02:39 pm:

well, I'm certainly in no position to do that, since as I have said, I have only been using this tek since June. I'm willing to assume you're right

By Cragith Kilbonith (Kilborn) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 02:57 pm:

dunking before the first flush speeds up later flushes? quote IM just throwing my $0.2 in. iv dunked the cakes first flush when they had pins, growth stopped for about 24 hrs it seemed like. iv dunked with pins 2nd flush and your right it goes faster. but is first flush a exception? only dunked cakes once with pins on them first flush and they were big pins, maybe one of those 2 things made the difference to slow the growth. And what did you dunk in quote skim milk or water. did you cold dunk them or not? Long live blue milk!

By quote: (Quote) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 03:09 pm:

i've used both water and skim milk b4.
when i use milk, i always cold dunk,
but with water, sometimes i don't.
as for your percieved stop in growth,
i think you're just impatient.
it'd be real hard to tell by eye if a cake hesitated a day then resumed growth.
i've never noticed it,
but i'll tell you what.
i'll keep a close eye on that next time,
and let you know what i find.

By plinkerdink420 (Plinkerdink420) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 12:08 am:

the milk doesn't introduce contams?

By Lichen (Lichen) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 12:17 am:

it certainly can, and that's why a cold dunk is the best way to go if you're dunking in milk

By Cragith Kilbonith (Kilborn) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 01:32 am:

i was just impatient my first growth ;)

By jared (Jared112) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 03:21 pm:

I just wanted to know if it would be a good idea to try and hydrate the cakes with about 4-6cc of water a few days before birthing by taking a used syringe and sticking it down into the jar and squirting a few cc's down each hole? Wouldn't it be like dunking invitro? or would this cause water damage to the mycelium? maybe even shooting them up the night before you birth them and sticking them in the fridge? What do you guys think of this idea.

By Lichen (Lichen) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 03:38 pm:

try it on a control group of jars, keep records of the results, and see if it works. I can't see a problem, but it would seem to me that dunking is the right technique, and probably works better

By quote: (Quote) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 04:50 pm:

it's prolly not going to make much difference in most cases.
rarely do cakes need water while still invitro, as very little is lost. only if they were over-cooked or took extraordinarily long to colonize do they need it.
and you wouldn't want to leave them submerged for days, damage begins to occur after 24 hours.

By jared (Jared112) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 08:05 pm:

I know that, pins can die after 48 hours. What I ment to say was. Do you think that doing this the day before you birth would be easier than dunking? or do you think that it will be the same basic principle. I would like to try it, maybe sometime I will, but I think that I will just let the jars fruit out their first flush before I start to do any rehydrating.
Which leads me to another question, after the first flush and I want to dunk, will I be able to dunk them in the 1/2 pint jars the I used to grow the mycelium or will that be too small? I think that using the same jars if its even possible would be a lot smarter than just throwing them all in the same tub... contams could spread.

By Dr. Cubesis III (Newbieshroomer) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 09:13 pm:

Hey Jared,

I had read a GREAT tek using two liter bottles,
where you cut the top off and shove it into
the body of the two liter with the cake in the bottom. I am using that one now, works great!

As for the jar. I have also heard of a tek where you take the half pint jar and use either a bottle cap or a ball of tin foil to keep the cake from rising to the top.

When all the experts get here, would I be needlessly overexposing myself to contams
if I dunked two seperate cakes per two liter bottle?? And, sorry bout the subtopic, I screwed that up, was supposed to be it's own topic, but, now I know how the subtopics work!!
won't make that mistake again!

By quote: (Quote) on Saturday, December 01, 2001 - 01:10 pm:

i prefer to dunk 'em individually, to avoid spreding contams. and i use the same jars they came in.
but if you have a bunch, you can dunk en masse.
i've put a dozen in a gallon freezer bag b4,
worked ok.