|By Nan (Nanook) on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 02:43 am: The Nook|
Beans... High in
protein, high in nitrogen... Great fruits, slow and difficult colonization.
I have extensive experience with "alternate" high nitrogen source substrates. Use them as a gentle additive to BR, but they will not work as a sub.
|By lance compkect (Innerpeace) on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 01:09 am: The Nook|
i was wondering about soy flour as a substitute for rice.
Soy has a substantial amount of phosphorus, better than three times rice. This would allow conversion of the unstable psilocin to psilocybin
Also, soy has about 3 to 4 times the amount of tryptophan than rice, the indole building block of psilocin and psilocybin....
|By Dr. Cubensis (Shroomzilla) on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 01:20 am: The Nook|
I wonder the same thing myself about MANY kinds of flour i see in the health food stores....
rye berrie flour...
|By Nan (Nanook) on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 02:51 am: The Nook|
Soy can be used as a gentle additive to BRF, but it cannot be used as a substitute, it's too rich or "hot".
|By ion ewe (Ion) on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 03:09 am: The Nook|
It works well. The reason BRF is used so often is because it has become the "standard" substrate on which many variants of cubies grow well.
PF used BRF and slowly but surely, the PF "race" has become used to it. Now, it prefers the stuff over dung, straw, soy, etc.
Soy is very high in nitrogen compounds (like dung) so it will tend to grow shorter, fatter fruits. Also, because of these excesses of nutrients, it can become acidic more quickly through decomposition (by the mycelia) of said nutrients.
Add just a pinch of pure gypsum for each 1/2 pint jar to help counteract this acidity.
As for the amount of psilocybin converted from psilocin, it depends on the variant's or specie's enzyme levels. "Races" and species that are known to produce tons of psilocybin and very little psilocin are the best prospects for such an experiment.
PF's have a decent ratio in BRF, but when "enhanced" with tryptamine, almost none of this extra psilocin is converted to 'cybin. In fact, it is often so busy producing 'cin that it hardly has the energy to produce any 'cybin at all! So if you have an excess of precursors to 'cin, you do not always get more 'cybin... even with the extra phosphate. You have to use a fungus that can enzymatically support such activity... like similanceata (liberty caps) or azurescens.
Soy does work, though. Sorry for the schpeal...
|By Joe Mamma (Madscientist) on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 03:42 am: The Nook|
I had five batches all fail from soy flour.I only used a small amount per cake. Don't bother. Only had bad luck. And if it was worth it then you would only here good things about it.
|By Nan (Nanook) on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 03:48 am: The Nook|
I have run it off against cloned mycelia at increasing
percentages of soy flour added to BRF. Colonization takes forever if you use more than 1 tablespoon soy per 1/4 cup BRF. At 100% soy cloned inoculum frequently did not take at all, and spores were very slow to germinate, if at all.
Just telling you what I have actually done.
|By Rhiz Lamellae (Annulus) on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 03:59 am: The Nook|
I'm with you doc. Corn, millet, oat, spelt - you name it, I've wondered while browsing through the local co-op. I don't know enough about the relationship between flour nutrients and psylocybe production in cubies. I would love to know which nutrients increase the production of magic in the mushies.
|By ion ewe (Ion) on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 06:03 am: The Nook|
Holy carp! I need to pay more attention to what I'm reading and what I post!
The whole time I was writing that, I failed to state that soy is a supplement. I also failed to realize that you had said substitute...
That was almost really bad... sorry, guys!
I think I was just going too fast. I wanted to answer about the psilocin level thing, and I just kinda glazed over the actual soy part.
|By Karna (Karna) on Saturday, January 26, 2002 - 06:31 pm: The Nook|
As Nan said, soy (and hempseed flour) will both work as additives, but not by themselves.
|Posted by: ShroomVator Dec 04 02, 12:04 PM GMT|
| I'm not sure if anyone has tried this, but I imagine tofu would be about the most nutritious medium around. I'm thinking of using it as a substrate with some manure and vermiculite. I guess you'd have to case with it, but I think it could work well.
Has anyone tried this?
|Posted by: Nanook Dec 04 02, 01:00 PM GMT|
| I have a lot of experience with soy additives. It was one of the, if not the, first time pp and I bumped heads over tek.
Soy increases the nitrogen in the substrate, as protein = nitrogen in metabolic processes. A little extra does not hurt... A little too much hurts a lot. And there are a couple of problems with soy making it less than ideal for anything more than an additive, even then I suggest it be used sparingly.
1) Too much fat
2) Poor carb source
I have used a tablespoon or two of soy flour as additive to rice flour... You get heavier fruitings, but the colonization times are increased. Too much soy and the jars hardly grow (3 tablespoons soy substitued for BRF in PF cakes = bad news).
If you are growing with manure... You have a good nitrogen source already, and it is in a more available, easier metabolized, form. It lacks the fat (which you don't need)... But it's not a good carb source.
End result of these lines of thinking for me is... Whole grains + manure = a better balanced better fruiting substrate than use of protien based nitrogen additives
|Posted by: ShroomVator Dec 04 02, 01:06 PM GMT|
| Have you tried tofu itself? I imagine that would work a little differently than the flour. The only instance I have read about using this as a fungus substrate is when Japanese scientists used tofu and sawdust (basically) to grow truffles indoors in a lab setting (first time this happened). They also make tofu that is very low fat or fat free - used in freakovegetarian cooking.
I do have some very low fat stuff in the fridge.
|Posted by: Mycota Dec 04 02, 01:37 PM GMT|
| Listen to Nan. He is right on.
Think on where cubes grow - naturaly (associated with dung). They evolved enzymes to digest that type nutrient, associated with bio/degraded lignin & cellulose. That is their "preferred" food source.
Giving them any nutrient source, other than what they are geneticly oriented to digest. Is like giving an ant eater a beef streak, to eat. It does not go over -- well.
Just like lots of new folks often suggest that Miracle Grow plant fertilizer might be a good additive to a mushroom substrate.
What they overlook is that this type fertilizer is in fact a PLANT FOOD. Not a nutrient source for fungi. So, it does more harm than good.
|Posted by: Nanook Dec 04 02, 01:47 PM GMT|
|They take simple carbs as a food source just fine, it's rich, but whole grain has been a staple high nute substrate for shroom culture for years... I think cased grain/manure substrates offer one of the biggest bang for the buck.|
|Posted by: Mycota Dec 04 02, 02:29 PM GMT|
|If you want to give a substrate some real super nutes, in a time release form? If you can find "rapeseed" (I.E., Canola). You can sterilize it. To halt germination. Then, include some of that -- into a bulk substrate. Doing so, increases the number & size of flushes. Penn State did a lot of research in that area. Mycota|
|Posted by: DirtyWOP Dec 04 02, 04:45 PM GMT|
| What are the difference between rape seed and flax seed?
And which might be a better additive to bulk manure......lots of it, I want to make some 8 inch deep beds and was going to use flax seed as an additive. I have never heard of rape seed I don't think....
|Posted by: Mycota Dec 04 02, 05:07 PM GMT|
|Posted by: Nanook Dec 04 02, 11:27 PM GMT|