Karna's Rye Grain Tek

Nan's Nook : Archives : Misc Tek : Grain Teks : Karna's Rye Grain Tek
  Subtopic Posts Updated Creator
Easy Rye Tek -   www.mushmush.nl
Bulk tek question:  5   Swilly
I want to experiment with rye.  9   Kman
Karna's Casing Tips  -    
Myco-Tek Rye Grain Prep  -    
Karna's Liquid Culture  -    
Pro's thread on Rye, Contams, Tek, Tips  28    
Rye grain colonization  13   Kman
Sterilizing Rye Grain  5   Richard Warren
Use hulled or non-hulled rye grain 4 spawn?  17   Ryan Waters

By Karna (Karna) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 03:41 pm:

Here's my rye tek (using rye berries which is what people refer to when they say they are using rye)

Hold rye just at or below simmering point for about 55 min (use PLENTY of water since it expands like hell. I use distilled when I can. Tap water has worked fine.)

Strain it. Right before or right after, I add a little Gypsum (a teaspoon at the most). Make sure you don't continue to steep after adding because it will become thick and sticky.

Immediately ( I stress) after straining, put into jars 3/4 of the way up, sterilize in pc for 45 min. When you remove the jars, tighten the lids and shake them well to loosen the grains.

Inoculate, once again tighten the lids and shake to distribute the inoculant. Incubate, shaking every 3-4 days.

It's really easy. Once you do it a few times, you'll get a feel for water content and stickiness as you adjust cooking time and heat. You want optimum water content (too high or too dry is failure) and low heat since higher heat will cause more grains to burst and more stickiness. Some grains will burst anyhow, that's normal. More cooking time=more water content. G'Luck

By Marx2k (Marx2k) on Wednesday, November 07, 2001 - 04:42 am:

In 15 rye jars, colonization has stalled after it gets to about the size of a quarter and stalls. Some jars get mold, other jars just stop. The grain is still visibly wet in the stalled ones and pretty dry in the moldy ones.

My prep is this: I take winter rye grain and boil it until the grain begins to pop out of its shell. When its mostly looking like that, I put it in jars and pc it for a long time (lets say... 2 hours). I even made a 10 pound oven bag of it and I think its still stalling on me.

When I open the jars, they smell sour. This is probably bacteria, but from what? Im very sterile and this is the only substrate that I seem to be having trouble with. Rice colonizes like a dream.

Any ideas? Ive lost a lot of productivity to this.

By Marx2k (Marx2k) on Wednesday, November 07, 2001 - 04:46 am:

Right now Im soaking the winter rye grain in water for 24 hours and will try the same tek again. Man I really hope it works this time. Im going through a LOT of rye here!

By relic (Relic) on Wednesday, November 07, 2001 - 05:25 am:

check your syringe. that should have worked as far as sterility. i bring the rye to a boil, then reduce the heat to the lowest possible setting and stir every 5 min. or so maintaining 1/4" of water above the grain for no more than 45 min. then strain well and load jars 2/3 full and p.c. for 75-90 min. @ 15 psi. works every time. inoc. wait for descent growth then shake well and wait another 5 days or so. how did you inoculate? what kind of jars?

you do not want all of the rye to 'pop' as you say. this will make shaking the grain a bitch. if done right, nothing is faster than rye. are you using, Polyfil, vent lid or filter discs or similar?

By yagshroom (Yagshroom) on Wednesday, November 07, 2001 - 05:42 am:

One problem that I have run into with both rye and rice is having the lid on completely air tight... every time I have done this, colonization has gone a little bit, then completely stopped, but resumed at full force once I left the lid unscrewed only enough for a tiny bit of air to be able to circulate. My guess is that the jars that did this with me just became completely saturated with CO2 and had used up all the O2.

By jack cracker (Cptcracker) on Wednesday, November 07, 2001 - 06:39 am:

just a suggestion...
i presoak my rye for 24 hours in bottled water, rinse well, drain well, then place loosely in pc. i.e. only 5 jars in the pc that holds 7. pc 1 hour @ 15lbs. don't start the timer until the sputtering starts. this way there are very few, if any, exploded grains.
rinsing is very important, it gets rid of the starchy residue that makes the berries stick together, making it easier to shake. draining well makes sure there is not too much moisture, which makes the whole thing a globby mess...
a filter disk or polyfil vent is a major need, the mycelium needs to breathe.
and you know the rest. trial and error is a tough way to learn, but with a little luck you'll get it right and finally enjoy the fruits of your labors...

By Nozza (Nozz) on Wednesday, November 07, 2001 - 11:49 am:

Yeah, if you are popping the grain then you are asking for bacterial problems. You want to stop pre-boiling as soon as you see any grains pop. You also want to rinse the cooked grain well with hot water so remove surface starch and let it drain well before filling the jars. Use polyfil lids too.

It sounds like you are introducing the contams after the sterilisation process because it is very unlikely that any mold is going to survive that sort of process - endospores of bacteria maybe but not molds. How are you innoculating them?

By Karna (Karna) on Wednesday, November 07, 2001 - 11:20 pm:

The important thing with rye is to either pre soak it or cook it properly. In order to cook it properly, you need to have the heat even, and on a very low setting as relic recommended so it is JUST under the boil. When you reach this heat, you see the occasional bubble come up, but the thing is not going like crazy. As far as time, don't go over an hour or things will get over-cooked. 45min-1hr is best. You need to find the ideal between those depending on your heat, size of container etc. If you stir the grain do so VERY gently. Some grains will pop no matter what you do. Don't worry about it if your heat is nice and low. I add a little gypsum just as I remove it from the heat, but this is not crucial and if you ask me, not terribly effective either in keeping the grains apart. Actually if you leave the gypsum in there for any length of time, you're pretty much guaranteed a syruppy mess, so drain it immediately if you use gypsum. If you cook it right, washing the starch off afterwards is not a huge deal. Usually I just drain it and put it right into the jars. I wouldn't pc over 1 hr. Sometimes I dunk it in cold water to halt the cooking and then drain it, but this is not crucial. Once you hit it with rye, you'll be loving yourself cause it's so easy to do.

By Marx2k (Marx2k) on Thursday, November 08, 2001 - 12:37 am:

I am currently presoaking about 10 pounds of rye (winter rye to be exact). It's at the 24 hour point. I will then pre-boil it for 45 minutes to an hour. I will then put them in 1/2 pint and pint jars covered with micron magick disks. I dont fully understand how to use Polyfill on a jar lid.

Previously, I was innoculating with Agar slices of a very well isolated golden teacher strain. My techniques are amazinly sterile and I do not believe the contams came in via innoculation. Although it sounds possible, it is improbable. Also, curiously enough, one jar got black mold, the other jor(s) got grey and green and the rest just stopped growing. Weird, no?

I will continue transfering agar slices, but I will also try injecting jars with spores as a control group. I guess we will see what happens. I just dont want it to stall or get moldy anymore. I want to succesfully spawn grain! I have pretty much mastered whole long grain brown rice and I believe it's time to move on.

By relic (Relic) on Thursday, November 08, 2001 - 12:51 am:

go get some Quart Jars fill them 1/2-2/3 full with precooked rye. like karna, i never rinse the rye or use Gypsum and mine shake up fine, sometimes need a good firm tap on the hand. it's like $6-8 for a box. if you use halfpints you're eliminating all the benefits of using rye. if you have filter discs they will work, although i don't understand how you inoculate when using them. i guess you lift the lid? as far as how to use Polyfil, it's real simple, you drill a pencil sized hole in the lid or a bit larger and stuff polyfil in the hole. fold it over a couple times and stuff it through. $3 bucks practically buys a lifetime supply at wally world. btw, it's also a good idea to shake the grain to loosen it up a bit before Inoculation*

By quote: (Quote) on Thursday, November 08, 2001 - 02:57 pm:

yup, i like to shake the rye jars as soon as they cool enough to handle. seems to be easier if done before it has a chance to 'set up'.

By Nozza (Nozz) on Thursday, November 08, 2001 - 04:20 pm:

I you're innoc'ing with agar wedges then you might want to consider using peroxide for the transfer. You probably know about this already, but if you don't...you just inject about 5-10ml of 3% peroxide into the jar though the lid and shake well, leave to soak in for 1/2 hour and then do your transfer. It works well and provides some extra oxygen as it breaks down. Apparantly is slows down growth but I've not noticed this. My cultures are probably evolved to deal with peroxide better now as I all my agar is peroxidated.

By Marx2k (Marx2k) on Friday, November 09, 2001 - 05:01 am:

actually, i didnt even know about the h2o2 injection to rye method. Also, would spores germinate in this method?

Anyway... I did 30 jars just now... half of them rye, half of them long grain brown rice mixed with brown rice flour... 1/3rd were with micron magick disks, the other 1/3rd polyfil and the rest with normal lids... lets see what occurs!

By relic (Relic) on Friday, November 09, 2001 - 05:25 am:

H202 kills spores. cool test, keep us posted.

Shroom Glossary : H2O2