|By jerkjunky2 (Jerkjunky2) on Friday, October 05, 2001 - 05:27 pm:|
Is it possible to make a syringe with TOO many sprores in it. Also Is it Possible to innoculate a jar with too many spores. Imagine as if you had a unlimited supply of said spores and waste was not an issue. I know that they recomend a 1/4 x 1/4 section of say a shittake, for example, print but lets say you made only 3 prints out of what would make 5. Then you injected 3 cc's of said spore solution instead of 1 cc per jar? Has any experimented with this? I am figuring maybe just increased colonization, for i know the myclieum mass can only be so big, limited by the nutrients and space avalible in said growing container.
Thank you very much for the help
|By Brettiejams (Brettiejams) on Friday, October 05, 2001 - 06:33 pm:|
While the large injection of spores(content wise) can indeed speed up colonization.... the mycelium that reaches the fruiting surface is more likely to be the fuzzy(not the best fruiting) type rather than the ropey, ryzomorphic(good fuiting) type.
There is also the issue of possibly throwing off the water content in your jar(too wet) by injecting in too much solution.
P.F. has commented in the past that his slower colonizing jars(low spore count innoculations) seem to fruit a lot better.
Hope that answers your question well enough
|By Marx2k (Marx2k) on Friday, October 05, 2001 - 08:52 pm:|
Also dont forget that with the large spore count from overinjection comes a lot of extra water which will make your jars sloppier than a hobo with a case of gin
|By Liberty_Caps (Liberty_Caps) on Friday, October 05, 2001 - 09:02 pm:|
I don't know but I was reading PF's site and it said these pics are frome mass spore inculations, so thats why I thought thoes cakes grew sooo many shrooms ,but bretti your prob right
|By Brettiejams (Brettiejams) on Friday, October 05, 2001 - 11:38 pm:|
Hey liberty...... if you do a search on PF, you may still be be able to come up with the thread about killer fruiting from low spore innoculations.
Although I'm sure P.F. himself would admit it is just a theory.... It is based on a reasonable amount of observations to at least suggest the theory may be correct.
Rock on all...Brettie.
|By Nan (Nanook) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 11:41 pm:|
By 2cbeauty (2cbeauty) on Monday, April 30, 2001 - 09:58 pm:
I have 10 PF style jars that are fully colonized and pinning. On one of the jars I failed to innoculate one of the 4 holes. This jar had a small section of uncolonized substrate when the others had just completed total colonization. However, the mycelium was VERY rhyzomorphic at the edges and quickly growing in from the side to cover the uncolonized spot.
When pinning began on the jars, this one jar has massive pinning along the entire side where I failed to inoculate. None of the other jars have produced pins in this manner.
Am I correct in saying that your theory would explain this as the more superior strain growing faster to fill in the uncolonized substrate. And with only the superior strain colonized in this area pinning is much more prolific.
If this is the case then it would seem that to get larger fruiting you should only innoculate 2 holes of the jar (on opposite sides).
I think I will experiment more with this on my next set of jars.
By Quote (Quote) on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 03:12 am
quite similar in principle to the idea behind isolating a strong fruiting strain on agar to use to inoculate .
By Fanaticus (Fanaticus) on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 07:05 am
Your Rhyzomorphic growth from the lesser inoculation is exactly what I am thinking.
I have a pic that shows that exactly. AS soon as somebody gives me a clue on how to post photos, I will put it up to show rhyzomorphic growth in a jar with a scanty inoculation spreading.
By Ridder (Ridder) on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 08:01 am
How To Post PICS
when you post (click preview/post and then click post to send it on it's way) you will be prompted to browse for a file (the image file you want to upload).. choose the file from your computer and click on the upload button. badda bing badda boom!
By Fanaticus (Fanaticus) on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 08:17 am
The secret is the word "image" that's literal
anyway. one cannot get ryhzomorphic growth like this if one does a heavy spore solution inoculation. The inoculation points obviously need space around them so that the ryzo strains can get going and take over.
I think there is something very profound here, and I am relearning some cool stuff.
By Ridder (Ridder) on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 08:33 am
that fucking rocks! FOAF jars have strands galore but nothing like that..
By Scugs (Scugs) on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 10:09 am
Whoa!!! That pick of rhizomorphic growth is exactly what my cakes are doing. I inoculated them about three weeks ago, and they only started colonizing from two holes. Now they are almost fully colonized. I thought that that whispy looking mycelium was a sign of weak growth, not potential massive fruiting!
By Quote (Quote) on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 11:48 am
gotta try that.
By Brettiejams (Brettiejams) on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 12:16 pm
I have only been growing for a relatively short time but I've been studying pretty hard and I have a GREAT mentor in HIPPIE3.
I hope you feel I am qualified enough to give my observations a bit of creedence.
It seems to me that each "sector" of mycelium has a definite purpose.
A colony(in a natural setting, started by many points of germination from many spores) consists of many individuals whom instinctively have a common purpose.(like a bee hive).
Now I feel that each sector has a purpose that is common to the cause(and essential to the vitality of the colony) but not neccesarily dedicated solely to the propagation of the specie(fruiting).
So, within each colony a process where each type of mycelium (sector) must try to establish itself in a manner that gives it the best opprotunity to be "fit for duty" when the colony decides it's time to "spread the seed" once again.
So it seems there is a period of gestation.
Then fighting for real estate.
Then, the forming of a coalition.
Then, in a concerted effort.. the formation of fruit(which spreads the spores (seeds)).
Eventually,(or should I say idealy) the mycelium diverts all of it's energy to the feeding of the stronger, rhyzomorphic mycelium strands that knot up and form our lovely fruits when they see the light of day.
It seems there is a war of attrition at each innoculation point.
If my thinking is correct, and these assumtions hold true, might it not be best to innoculate with say one half a cc of innoculant( with a relatively low , but adequate spore count) in the center of a half pint wide mouth P.F. cake and letting all the "ass- kicking" happen all at once; in the center of the cake?
By the time it's all said and done, the ryzomorphic strands should abound on the outer parts of the cake...No?
By Quote (Quote) on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 01:16 pm
the biggest problem i see looming is empty sectors.
i used to get almost 20 jars from a single syringe by just using a drop of sporewater.
and, yes, they fruited very well.
but i kept getting lots of sectors with no growth at all, forcing second inoculations and delayed colonization.
By Brettiejams (Brettiejams) on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 02:24 pm
Quote, were you innoculating once in the center of the cake?
I was also thinking that you would probably have to (I know this is a finesse move) pull the syringe out slowly once the plunger starts to move and make sure to stop before you hit the verm. barrier
By Admin (Admin) on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 02:41 pm (Quote)
no, not the center.
takes too long to grow out and cover the outside,
which is want you really want, anyway.
covering the substrate with mycellia seals in moisture while keeping contams out.
By Brettiejams (Brettiejams) on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 02:48 pm
What is the biggest problem with jars that colonize slowly, contamination?
By Mbyrne (Mbyrne) on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 03:38 pm
the only jar i had contam was the last to one that colonized.
By Fanaticus (Fanaticus) on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 05:55 pm
Brittiejams suggestion of inoculating once into the very top of the cake has a good point.
The colonization will be very slow and slow to appear (on the outside of the cake)
But I don't see why when the mycelium appears it wouldn't be strong rhyzomorphs.
I think a compromise would be in order just to speed things up, and inoculating at two opposite points mid cake would be the compromise with rampant rhyzomorphs happening.
By Seraphim (Seraphim) on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 05:58 pm
the pic looks just like most of mine... how much spore solution was used on such a jar?
i made about 9cc's last for 12 half-pints (each with three holes instead of four). temperature was in high 70's to low 80's -- two and-a-half weeks later i have in vitro pinning.
pf classic, pf tek.
(i guess i'm assuming syringe spore density is standardized. this was done using syringe straight from pf.)
By Oldtimer (Oldtimer) on Wednesday, May 02, 2001 - 05:22 pm
Damn PF!... that's one huge rhizomorph growing outta the top of that jar!! Almost looks like a sock or something! I've seen some ropey mycelium in my day but that's amazing... attack of the killer carpophores.
By Cyrusbarnaby (Cyrusbarnaby) on Wednesday, May 02, 2001 - 09:20 pm
I just cased a batch of PF albinos that were innoculated in exactly the same manner as you just described -- I've been experimenting with different innoc. teks lately. Single hole innoculation through a vermiculite barrier as per PF. The mycelium took six week to overtake the half-pint jars and was not particularly rhizomorphic. I took especial notice of the fact that as the mycelium became more and more apparent at the periphery of the jar, that it looked rather cottony as opposed to stringy. I remember this because I love to watch rhizomorphs race across the surface of the jars, and this did not occur. It may be that the rizomporphs were essentially growing in a "stright line" from the center of the cake where they were innoculated and not across the surface of the cake once they reached it. Or it may just be that this is one of those ass-chapping instances when the thing that statistically should have happened, for whatever reason, did not. Obviously this is only one instance and proves nothing in itself. In my opinion, PF's theory appears sound, and his photograhic evidence is pretty convincing. I'll have to give it a try.
By Oldtimer (Oldtimer) on Wednesday, May 02, 2001 - 11:31 pm
Actually I was joking about the "tube" sock or whatever the hell that is behind the jar! Warped sense of humor I suppose... I'm still laughing at my own stupid joke...For some reason everything seems funny today... oh well
By Sillycybin (Sillycybin) on Wednesday, May 02, 2001 - 11:45 pm
I'm still laughing at it too, oldtimer
By Quote (Quote) on Thursday, May 03, 2001 - 01:08 pm
finally, a sock puppet caught in the act!