About the flat cake tek

Nan's Nook : Archives : Misc Tek : Flat Cake Tek : About the flat cake tek
  Subtopic Posts Updated Creator
Bulk Tek  -    
I like the flat cake tek  24 12/13 11:30pm Ashenms

By Ashenms (Ashenms) on Monday, August 27, 2001 - 07:49 am:

I was wondering if someone could direct me somewhere on how to do the flat cake tek or do i just smush my cake.

By Eatyualive (Eatyualive) on Tuesday, August 28, 2001 - 04:29 am:

hey i couldn't find it. but here is the breakdown. get caserole dishes. the glass kind. then allow your cakes to grow after 100% colonization for 1-2 weeks. then break the cakes up into pea size pieces and lay them flat on the bottom of the caserole tray. try to make the cake as even as possible with a fork. then cover with saran wrap and poke holes in it. then put sterilized damp vermiculite on top to cover and rehydrate the cakes. allow to grow for 3-5 days. usually only takes me 3 days. then birth like a pf cake and scrape verm. make sure you flip them upside down so that the flat white mycelia is on top. also use a fork on the sides bc sometimes it attaches tenaciously to the edge of the caserole.

By Johnseemore (Johnseemore) on Friday, September 21, 2001 - 05:13 am:

Hay eat got a question about your flat cake this is what is happening to my cakes thay are fucking turning in to SHEEP i have chia cakes what am i doing wrong

By Eatyualive (Eatyualive) on Friday, September 21, 2001 - 08:11 pm:

Hey John,
thats funny (chia cakes). i think the problem is that you have set your mycelia in overdrive incubating at 90 degrees. everything seems to be growing well and there is no infection. I am still not understanding myself why your mycelia is still alive or not infected but if it works cool. I just think it has something to do with your temperature you are incubating at. if there is any way possible to cool an area down to incubate i would say that 80 would be ideal. after all i incubate at 74. that is the only problem that i can see why the myc. is getting so fuzzy. when you look in your caseroles is there a bit of extra condensation on the cakes. I don't see this as a problems just scrape it off. but if it is still doing it in your grow room then i think the temp is too high.

By Johnseemore (Johnseemore) on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 04:11 am:

do you mean scrape the myc off of it right now or leave it in till it fruits. have you ever had this and just let it go to see what happenes with out scraping it off.

By Eatyualive (Eatyualive) on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 08:18 am:

yes. and it there was no result. fluffy is bad. either too high humidity or too much heat. scrape it off. and change the temp of your grow and incubation room. it is the only advise i can give. i just built an entrainment system in my chamber. hopefully it works.

By ROBERT R WARFEL (Imrollin6969) on Wednesday, September 26, 2001 - 07:28 pm:

what the hell is an entrainment system? another question is casing absolutely neccesary for bulk growing? i have alot of freinds who want some and i am looking for the best way to help them. i have had mad failures with casing and i was wondering if you could get away without it maybe making a large cake or cakes in something like glad ovenware lasagna dishes similar to quos bulk tek and just fruiting really big cakes either in or out of the dish itself because they come with lids and can be sterilized in an oven and maybe innoculated by making a hole in the lid and then sealing with tape. what do you guys think?

By ROBERT R WARFEL (Imrollin6969) on Wednesday, September 26, 2001 - 08:22 pm:

wow, the more i think about this idea the better it seems. since the glad ovenware containers themselves are opaque there would be no problem with fruiting on the sides, only on top and they could be grown invitro with the clear lid staying on. you could also dunk in between flushes in the same container, so casing to hold in moisture would be unnecessary. also, since they are relatively inexpensive, you could grow alot without the need for a humidified terrarium, virtually anywhere. i think this may be the solution i've been looking for. any input would be appreciated.

By littlebro (Littlebro) on Wednesday, September 26, 2001 - 08:30 pm:

check out quotes bulk tek, in the teks link. sounds like what you're looking for.

By Eatyualive (Eatyualive) on Wednesday, September 26, 2001 - 10:39 pm:

use coco fiber to case.

By ROBERT R WARFEL (Imrollin6969) on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 01:20 am:


By littlebro (Littlebro) on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 04:29 am:

follow eatu's revised flat cake tek (except you already have the cake) and it should work out well. pretty sure you can plop it in the terarium once fully colonized, or you could case it, whichever you are more comfortable with. his tek is posted a few weeks back.

By Johnseemore (Johnseemore) on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 03:08 pm:

his entertainment system would have someting to do with an elabrit air movment system with pvc.

By IMROLLIN6969 (Imrollin6969) on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 06:10 pm:


By saluras (Saluras) on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 07:43 pm:


the point is to get a lot of myc to spawn to other things so the shape of the mass doesn't matter.

By IMROLLIN6969 (Imrollin6969) on Friday, September 28, 2001 - 02:48 am:

ok i was trying to get away from doing so much work. how well does microwave sterilization work, i mean if i sterilize a dozen half pint jars worth in a microwaveable container with a lid, but otherwise use the pf tek with the dry verm layer on top do you think i will have a problem? i'm just trying to make things as simple as possible.

By littlebro (Littlebro) on Friday, September 28, 2001 - 08:29 am:

the way to make things as simple as possible is to follow a tek as closely as possible, and research any subsequent threads posted thereafter. works for me.

By Eatyualive (Eatyualive) on Friday, September 28, 2001 - 06:23 pm:

yes, saluras is right. the bulk tek doesn't make a difference on shape. especially if you are going to case or make a flat cake. it works if yyou need quick bulk for super spawning, or if you need to colonize in a week. i would use the bags not a plastic container. it is so easy. and eliminates the use of jars and cleaning.

By Mr. Tambourine Man (Tambourine_Man) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 05:14 am:

OK, I've been trying to read a bunch of different information about the Flatcake tek and put it all together. Is this BASICALLY right:

1. Grow 3 colonized PF-style jars

2. Crunch them up, put them in a caserole dish, and cover them with wet sterilized vermiculite

3. Once the big cake is colonized thoroughly, remove the vermiculite, flip it over, and put it in a tuperware bin with perlite in the bottom for humidity

4. Make sure the bin is around 80 degrees, and harvest shrooms when they pop up

Is that basically the way it is done? How much is usually harvested in all the flushes of a cake like that, and how long does it take to reach that point after loading the caserole dish with colonized jars? Any additions or suggestions? Thanks!

Pie Pan Casing Tek

By quote: (Quote) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 06:46 pm:

you should, if everything goes right, get between 20-30 dry grams eventually.
it should take roughly 3 weeks from the time you crumble until you get first fruit, prolly another month to get it all in.

By Snoopy (Snoopy) on Monday, November 12, 2001 - 07:09 pm:

I have a few pans with your tek going. Do you advise, once I see the mycelin peeking out from under the verm to remove the casing from the container, or to keep it in the container and let them fruit. Just seems that there would be more surface area if I removed them from the container, allowing them to grow out the sides aswell.. Only advantage to keeping them in the container I can see is that perhaps it will remain damp longer, and all the shrooms will grow straight up..... what do you suggest??

P.S Love yer pics!

By Eatyualive (Eatyualive) on Tuesday, November 13, 2001 - 10:31 pm:

yes i do suggest birthing the cakes now if the mycelia is popping at the top. make sure the cakes look grown together very thick. i would not suggest pinning invitro. i have had bad results doing this. so birth. i believe that my tek said all of this but if not i guess i need to go and add a little.

By Lichen (Lichen) on Saturday, December 08, 2001 - 03:44 am:

I have asked this question twice now, and can't seem to get an answer. So, sorry for making another topic just to get some attention...

Why, when making a flatcake, should one flip the cake over when it's finished colonizing? Does this somehow make the cake pin up and fruit more heavily?

I am fruiting some wafer tek trays. One is B+ and seems to be fruiting out in mediocrity; I used two fresh cakes for it, cased it with verm immediately, waited for colonization and pinning, and now there's 15 or 20 carpophores on it... some nice, fat ones. Looks like a decent flush, really, but certainly not like that pic OT posted recently.
The other is a False Mex, in which I used one cake, cased immediately, and it's pathetic. I picked one 1-gram shroom already. Would I have been benefitted by flipping these after colonization?
B+ wafer

By Nan (Nanook) on Saturday, December 08, 2001 - 04:37 am:

I have seen the question, and would have answered it... But I don't know and I have to pass.


By quote: (Quote) on Saturday, December 08, 2001 - 05:24 am:

i can't think of any reason flipping would make much difference, except perhaps to re-distribute water, which tends to settle to the bottom.

By ion ewe (Ion) on Saturday, December 08, 2001 - 06:03 am:

Perhaps increased oxygen levels available to the freshly exposed underbelly. Increased light, even. Could just be the shock. As has been discussed, mycelia generate heat while growing; you may just need that bit of cold shock from taking it out of it's warm little casserole dish. Could also be the same reason that the top (bottom after birth) of jar cakes don't produce as much where the verm barrier was sitting while they colonized. I would just say to go with whatever seems to work best for you...


By Lichen (Lichen) on Saturday, December 08, 2001 - 06:58 am:

Well, the best teacher is experience...I'll just muddle through. I'll post pics of those when they finish up...they're my first. See, Quote, some people are willing to post pics of failures...it's lame, but wtf?

By Eatyualive (Eatyualive) on Saturday, December 08, 2001 - 10:32 pm:

i think i answered this question but i don't quite remember. if not i probably didn't even see the question. when i make a flat cake, i don't even allow the top verm layer to colonize. therefore fruiting off of the mycelia. basically you are not scraping off a casing layer bc it is not a casing layer. it never becomes a casing layer. you could grow off of the layer if you want. but the purpose of the flat cake is that it is a cake. and you are growing it like a cake. i hope this helps explain your question.

By Lichen (Lichen) on Sunday, December 09, 2001 - 01:29 am:

so you actually put verm on just for the moisture retention, then flip it over...there's no verm in the bottom? So, if I understand correctly, no verm in the bottom of the dish, crumbled cakes directly in the bottom, verm casing on top, and flip when colonized but before pinning?

By An guy (Boomer) on Sunday, December 09, 2001 - 01:33 am:

His pictures often show naked cakes- just verm on the bottom when it finally ends up in position. I think that might be what he means by 'growing like a cake', meaning just like a pf cake?

I dont' know.

And I dont' know otherwise, either, but I can't get the phrase 'cold shock' out of my head when I read this thread. Maybe that would help, Lichen?

You could try it, I suppose.

By Lichen (Lichen) on Sunday, December 09, 2001 - 03:59 am:

I am cold-dunking the B+ wafer in the fridge...I just harvested. I plan to flip it over in the morning, and put it back into the fruiting chamber...here's the result before I harvested:

By Kaijan (Kaijan) on Sunday, December 09, 2001 - 04:54 am:

nice and pretty :)

By Lichen (Lichen) on Sunday, December 09, 2001 - 05:58 am:

By nuecrew (Nue) on Sunday, December 09, 2001 - 06:58 am:

I've seen this question posed before about flipping the cake. It seems the shroom either has to have an appropriately thick casing to grow through or a freshly exposed bare surface to grow from.
The following pics are both Equadors grown in 1/2 pint jars with PF style substrate. The jars were innoculated with spores about 6 weeks ago. I then made flatcakes Eatyualive style, with a thin layer of vermiculite on top, 2 weeks ago. The first cake/pic was flipped 7 days ago. The second cake/pic I'll flip tomorrow. As you can see the second cake still has a couple weeks until pinning if were to leave it as-is whereas the first cake will be ready to pick in two weeks. I didn't flip them both at the same time because I wanted to see if the cakes would pin at the same rate under different conditions.Flatcake pinsNo pins

By nuecrew (Nue) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 06:55 pm:

I used an Equador spore print. 1/2 pint jars, PF substrate. Took six jars and sliced, diced and crumbled with a knife(carefully)to eliminate anything bigger than a 1/2". Layed it all on a saran wrap lining in an Al pan just big enough to fit in my 10 Gal. aquarium. Put some verm. on top for....?.well Quote did it. After about 5 days flipped it over in the same pan and nurtured it like cakes. And after 3 weeks. I've never seen such massive pinning as with this tek. The pic is first flush. I'll never use anything but PF strain from now on. Thier spores colonize and fruit 50% faster for me on brown rice. I thought this cake was a failure after the time passed when a PF cake would have fully fruited. But I'm still earning my degree in shrooms.Spr.Wrks.Equadorpins

By quote: (Quote) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 07:01 pm:

quite impressive.
so how long from birthing cakes to such pinning ?
nearly a month, correct ?

By nuecrew (Nue) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 07:07 pm:

At least a month from birthing to pinning. I thought I had a "failtek" for quite a while. I have some 9er's going with the Equadors that just last week started pinning. I guess I got spoiled with those PF hotshots.

By Nugdumper (Nugdumper) on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 10:47 pm:

You lost me on the "flipping" part... can you describe what you did in more detail?

By Eatyualive (Eatyualive) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 03:43 am:

nice job!!!i'm jealous.

By nuecrew (Nue) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 09:41 pm:

I apologize for the confusion. The race is Equadorian from a Spore Works print. The point I was trying to make is I will forever more buy only strains from PF in Seattle. They fruit faster and give consistant better yeilds. If I had used PF Classic in this cake I would have had fruiting in two weeks rather than 3-4 and heavier yeilds. Potency has never been an issue with PF strains.
To clarify for Mr.Nugdumper..11/27,10:47pm..The saran wrap lined pan is filled with crumbles of cake, patted down with sterile_glove_covered
_hands and covered with vermiculite. After about 5 days the whole thing knits together into one piece. I sprayed the vermiculite well on top and "flipped" it to expose the virgin white underside for fruiting. Hope that helped. I need to brush up on my communication skills!

By Patrick (Valence) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 05:01 am:

So what are the actual dimensions of the aluminium pan. What was the harvest total?

By ion ewe (Ion) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 09:53 am:

I usually just look at these pics and don't post (although I suppose I should offer more words of encouragement). But... but... Good Lord, Man! I've never seen anything quite like that! It looks as if the cake waited until everyone was ready and said, GO!! The composition of those pics is outstanding, too. Inside the chamber, just over eye level, and a macro to boot! The haze of mist adds a soft-filter quality. Just exquisite!
Now keep those guys moist. They're going to need it! I think that cake is going to use up all its food at once. You may get a small second flush, but I'd be surprised to see more. That is unless those Ecuadors use more water than most in the sporocarp matrix. As a matter of fact, I'd pick those guys as soon as you see the veil stretching. Then case 'em with some coir.
But what am I saying? You obviously know what you're doing! My hat is off to you, Sir. (minus the hat) Good show!


P.S. As for your communication skills... I say a picture is worth a thousand words...

By nuecrew (Nue) on Saturday, December 08, 2001 - 10:12 am:

Here's the second flush from the flat cake in the above pic. Clear cuts aren't pretty sights. I don't think this cake is going to give up much more than this. The second pic is another Equador flat cake testing out a $2 disposable/recycleable grow chamber. The Equador 9er's grew into these cool looking shroom bouquets. Come on Christmas!!!After the clear cutFlat cakes' new homeFor Nan

By Eatyualive (Eatyualive) on Saturday, December 08, 2001 - 10:27 pm:

that eq flat cake looks like it is going to take over. i am quite impressed. nice job. keep up the good work. and that shroom bouquet looks like a good x- mas present.

By Patrick (Valence) on Sunday, December 09, 2001 - 12:29 am:

Nuecrew you never answered my question the first time so here it is again. What are the dimensions of the aluminum pan and what was the total harvest of the first ones?

By nuecrew (Nue) on Sunday, December 09, 2001 - 07:19 am:

14"x10. Dry ounce.

By Nan (Nanook) on Sunday, December 09, 2001 - 06:11 pm:

Right on Nue! I have a question since you and I have both done 9er Tek and other Teks...

Did you use a Clone?

By nuecrew (Nue) on Sunday, December 09, 2001 - 07:22 pm:

No I didn't. After glossing over a few threads from the Clone link you gave me I can see this could be a new and exciting learning experience. I do have all the equipment necessary. I'm thinking cloning is natural selection, on a VERY small scale, having to do with my growing parameters and envirorment. Or maybe not.

By kobayashi (Impalerzz) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 09:48 pm:

Im very sorry if this has been covered. Ive looked through archives and cant seem to really answer this question:
I use the flat cake method and have never dunked my cakes. Im thinking after the next flush, or maybe now, that I'll give it a shot.
Im hesitant,until Ive heard that its a good idea, so any feedback is greatly appreciated.
Ive got a good idea how to dunk, so dont feel the need to link me to dunking. I just wanna know if dunking laws apply to flatcake methods, as well as pf's. To me it seems common sense that it'd work, but I just want to hear from those who may shed some light my way.
ps: eatyoualive is the man.

By jim brown (Shrhobbyist) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 09:59 pm:

I have found it is possible but more difficult than dunking a regular PF cake. What I do is take a piece of chicken wire that is as wide across as your flatcake and about 4 or 5 inches longer. Bend the longer edges about two inches in on each side. Bend them up so it makes a tray that the cake will fit in. After you've cleaned the cake dump it into the chicken wire tray and lower that into a container of water. close the container, putting something on the cake that keeps it under water. After the dunk just pull the tray out by the bent up edges, let it drain and dump it back into it's original tray.

This chicken wire tray isn't neseccary but I have found it makes it easier to dunk the flatcake and the tray itself is quite easy to make. Hope that helps.

By Brad (Raze) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 10:05 pm:

What about making a frame a bit larger out of a coathanger, and stretching panyhose over that?

By jim brown (Shrhobbyist) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 10:17 pm:

Same idea I suppose. The only problem you might have is, unless you flatcake is nice and sturdy, panty hose might not provide enough support for it and it might break. This would be more likely to occur with a wafer cake than a crumbled flatcake. The chicken wire tray is really easy to make, though. Of course the panty hose one wouldn't be that hard either, I guess.

By Karna (Karna) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 10:41 pm:

Be careful what you dunk. I have not heard of much success with dunking anything other than pf substrates. I myself would steer clear of whole grain dunks whether flat cake or not.
Also, you shouldn't really have to dunk a PF substrate flat cake since it is after all a casing method and the casing delivers ample moisture for fruiting.

By kobayashi (Impalerzz) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 10:52 pm:

I was just wondering because these cakes are really strong with white fuzz. Ive been increasing fanning, Im not to worried. I do have one cake that has a bit of yellowing to it. Its not at all fuzzy, but does show mycelial(sp) growth. What do u all think I should do with the yellowing?
Just leave it?
How bout these little greenish/blue spots that I see in areas of the casing?
Is it bad? Should I remove it?
See why I am curious about dunking....Im just trying to restore/optimise this cake.

By Brad (Raze) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 11:16 pm:

My one cake has yellow spots on the bottom. I think its water damage. I have them upside and there's always a bead of water above that spot

By Nan (Nanook) on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 11:23 pm:

Sometimes you can hold the jar upside down, tip, shake, or gently bang the jar and get water to roll down the glass wall to the lid where it is absorbed by the verm barrier.

By kobayashi (Impalerzz) on Sunday, December 30, 2001 - 07:19 pm:

Hello all,
Ive got basic questions, that anyone could answer with a y or n.

1. Does the fruiting stage begin when you see your first shroom, or right after you see pins?
Just looking for an exact answer so as to optimize my setup and knowledge.

2. At this point how much humidity is needed for flatcakes?
I have cakes made as per eatyou's methods. With no verm or perl at the bottom of my containers.I am thinking that the cakes themselves will supply enough moisture....am i right??

I wish I could post pics, because this one little bunch of waste that I cased has started to BLOOM.


By quote: (Quote) on Monday, December 31, 2001 - 03:03 am:

1. when the pins become numerous and start getting big, switch from pinning to fruiting conditions.

2. wrong. cakes won't be able to supply enough moisture without lossing what they need for themselves. you want to humidify the chamber near 95-100% by other means, such as perlite.

By Kman (Kman) on Wednesday, January 16, 2002 - 01:37 am:

I would jsut like to say that since going to flat cakes I have seen a dramatic increase in yeild. It is still to early to say that for sure, but it seems that the extra surface area is really getting put to use.
I have one large flat cake(7"x11") that I made out of two pint jars of rye. It colonized the top layer of verm very nicely at first, I patched it once and then put it in the terrarium after it grew threw again. Now it seems to have stopped growing? it isn't anymore colonized that a week ago and no pins showing up yet while my other cake the same size is about 2 days away from maturity. Am I just being in-patient? or has it stalled out? I did notice a few little tiny drops of water on it and have since backed off the humidifier. any idea?

By Eatyualive (Eatyualive) on Wednesday, January 16, 2002 - 05:12 am:

i am not really sure bc i have never tried the flatcake with rye berry. i had a tc rye cake that fruited pretty shitty. and funny thing is it wouldn't fruit off of the casing i applied only off the mycelia. i would say maybe to lightly scratch the outside of the cake to maybe let it restructure its pinning surface. you may try adding a little coco fiber on top or even a light casing.

By Kman (Kman) on Wednesday, January 16, 2002 - 05:23 pm:

ya I was thinking of scratching off a tiny layer of verm just down to the mycelium then putting a very thin new layer of verm and see what happens, its weird I have another flat cake that was done by crumbling some post first flush cakes and its going CRAZY, I LOVE FLAT CAKES! so the conditions are pretty good but nothing? Quote any ideas?

By quote: (Quote) on Thursday, January 17, 2002 - 03:22 pm:

since growth stopped, either it's getting ready to set pins, hopefully.
or it might be too dry, or possibly even contam'd inside where you can't see.
i'd just wait it out, a light scratch might help.

By Kman (Kman) on Thursday, January 17, 2002 - 04:03 pm:

Thanx quote, that's just what I did, Igave it a little scratch and tiny misting and it will hopefully take care of it. It was probaly that I just didn't wait long enough.

By Dr. Cubensis (Shroomzilla) on Thursday, January 17, 2002 - 05:21 pm:

Yep yep, My buddy used his colonized grain to make 20 12x12 pans, a full quart in each pan. The a 50/50 verm/dung mix was added. The pans were then left to colonize COMPLETELY over the substrate, and it took so long my friend gave up. He buried around 6 of them outside, saved five pans and dunked the entire mess of them that were left overnight in giant ziplocks. Some then went to invitro experiments, some went in as mini cakes in
one of the terrariums.. Basically was experimenting, and didn't really hope to succeed...

Then, a few days ago, the first pans took off. ANd I mean took off. That thursday friday of last week
when i noticed. My friend has harvested the first tray last night. took the caps from every shroom fit to print on the tray. and ended up with almost 50 shrooms ( eq's i think ) Amazing. the fruits didn't go but four inches or so tall but there were SO MANY OF THEM! And that was one tray...

On the flipside of that though... Tall pint jelly jars were used to test chronics method of invitro... And the harvests are substantial. for this set of 12 ( never seen these jars for sale anywhere, got them second hand ;0) ) and some of the shrooms are approaching 35-40 grams each. Seems each cake produced one GIGANTIC shroom, and a few smaller bunches here and there.

Not sure what is more impressive.

A forest flush in a tray, or a massive, 9 incher that winds almost twice around a cake invitro and is about an inch wide...

Awww, the joys.... Continuing the experiments with the dung, and, can't wait to test them on a willing guinea pig this weekend,,, THe very first shrooms my friend actually grew using dung.... Magic moment * sniff *


By Mr. Tambourine Man (Tambourine_Man) on Monday, January 21, 2002 - 04:12 am:

What is your guys' favorite strain for the flatcake tek? How does the Equadorian strain do?

By Eatyualive (Eatyualive) on Monday, January 21, 2002 - 06:13 am:

well my favorite strain is my tex or pf classic. hawaiians are nice and i like tc also but a little more patience is required with these strains. plantasia does well, tazmanian, golden teacher, eq's( add a thin toplayer of verm, lightly damp when birthing). but don't do palenque they suck on flat cakes. actually they are tiny as hell. or fruit inconsistently on flatcakes. it isn't quite a flush. it is more like a mushy grows here, a mushy grows there and then when they decide it is time for the 2nd flush. you end up waiting too long for hopes of just a few mushies. so i basically pick em and dunk em with the palenque.
here is a list of strains that do well with a toplayer of verm.
puertos( doubled ended flatcake)

do not use a verm layer on pf classic

but my suggestion is let them fruit with out a verm layer first flush then add it second flush with a double ended casing.