>From jad Wed Mar 3 17:11 EST 1993 remote from ckuxb.att.com From: jad@ckuxb.att.com Date: Wed, 3 Mar 93 17:11 EST To: jad@hopper.acs.virginia.edu Received: from ckuxb.att.com by hopper.acs.virginia.edu.ACS.Virginia.EDU; Wed, 3 Mar 1993 18:06 EST Content-Type: text Content-Length: 7851 Status: OR Article 20734 of alt.conspiracy: Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.individualism,alt.censorship,talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines,soc.culture.usa From: jad@hopper.ACS.Virginia.EDU (John DiNardo) Subject: Part 4, Curing AIDS Victims & Debunking Deadly Medical/Media Drug Dogma Message-ID: <1993Feb22.175920.6451@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> Followup-To: alt.conspiracy Keywords: Curing AIDS Victims & Debunking Deadly Medical/Media Drug Dogma Sender: usenet@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU Organization: UVA. FREE Public Access UNIX! Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1993 17:59:20 GMT Lines: 153 The following transcript is of a tape-recorded broadcast by NO-commercials, NO-corporate-influences, listener-funded, beacon-of-truth Pacifica Radio Network station of the People: WBAI-FM (99.5) 505 Eighth Ave., 19th Fl. New York, NY 10018 (212) 279-0707 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * (continuation) DR. ROOT BERNSTEIN: There's actually an additional problem there which is that most of the tests that are done there are the Eliza[sp] test which is not a very specific test for HIV. GARY NULL: They won't even allow that. If you go up to a person and say: "Here, we're going to give you an Eliza test." They're going to say that it's not good enough. DR.BERNSTEIN: That's right. And worse, over in Africa, they found that there are a lot of false positives for things like malaria and hepatitis which, with people who are infected with those disease organisms, they often look like they're HIV infected to the Eliza test. GARY NULL: I mean, after all, let's be realistic. It's very expensive and very difficult and very time-consuming to get their tests done here. I know. We had two women. We just had their tests done when they returned from a trip where they were supposedly treated successfully for their AIDS. And it turns out that they're still HIV-infected. And it was very premature for any of these people to announce that they had been successfully treated when, indeed, the labs and I warned these people: "Let's see what your blood shows." And it showed that they were still infected. But now if you could imagine the difficulty and expense involved -- where is a person in Africa, where they don't even have a proper blood bank, where they do not have the sophisticated equipment .... then how in the world can they be making statements unless they qualify the statements, saying: "We're guessing. We have NO idea. We're just going to guess how many people [`have AIDS']." Then we have a right to say: "Alright. It's your guess." But no one is claiming that it's a guess. They're being very emphatic. And therein is where I take issue, because you cannot differentiate, no one can differentiate a person suffering from gross malnutrition, with parasitic infection, with malaria, with syphilis, gonorrhea, Epstein-Barr virus, dying in Africa, from a person who is HIV-infected. You cannot. No human being can! It's not possible. So how in the hell are they coming up saying that all these people "have AIDS" when they could be dying from these other conditions? That's my question. What is your response to that, Dr. Bernstein? DR. BERNSTEIN: I think that's an extremely good question and, unfortunately, one that I haven't seen an answer to. And, until we get the answer, I'm afraid that we really aren't going to understand how to control what they're calling "AIDS", regardless of what the actual cause is. We certainly cannot pin HIV as the cause of all those conditions, or say that it is THE cause of the immune suppression leading to these people's deaths, with all these OTHER factors that are clearly present, and which have not been accounted for. GARY NULL: But that's what they've been saying! DR. BERNSTEIN: That's right. GARY NULL: And that is NOT good science. DR. BERNSTEIN: No, it isn't. I mean, finally, I got angry enough, about four years ago, to sit down .... I've just completed a book called "RETHINKING AIDS", which will be out on March 15th, where I've simply gone through all of these studies -- the kinds of things that you're talking about here, which I've just talked about -- and I've reached exactly the same conclusions that you've reached. This is bad science. People are assuming things. They are not doing proper control studies. They are NOT demonstrating that HIV is, in fact, THE cause [of AIDS]. They have not shown that there is ANYBODY ..... and this is a challenge that I have put out to the medical community MANY times over the last four years, which NO ONE has even attempted to answer. No one has EVER shown me an AIDS patient, who has significantly low T cell counts, whose only immunological risk factor is HIV. Everyone always has other problems. GARY NULL: Well then how can something meet Cox's[sp] Postulates to be the cause of a disease if, in and of itself, ALONE, without risk factors, it cannot cause any of the twenty-four conditions that they're calling "AIDS"? DR. BERNSTEIN: It cannot! And I actually have an entire chapter in my book where I point out the problems with that. I point out that there are a lot of other postulates ..... They've always had problems meeting Cox's Postulates ..... but they've come up with other possibilities, other ways of showing that viruses cause disease. HIV has not satisfied any of those [challenges]. In fact, there are several other possibilities such as models of synergistic combined infections, auto-immune models, things like that which may account much better for AIDS than the HIV model -- some of which [models] account for why HIV is present and some of which simply say that it's an accidental infection, along with the other twenty-five [infections] that people get when they get AIDS. GARY NULL: Could you go through some of the anomalies on AIDS for those who don't always appreciate what the meaning of this is, on a scientific basis, in the argument. DR. BERNSTEIN: Well, we can start with Cox's Postulates. There's a good one. First of all, in general, regardless of whether you actually use Cox's Postulates or one of the virological modifications of it, you have to demonstrate that a disease organism is present in the vast majority, if not in all of the people who get the disease. That's clearly been done with HIV. What people gloss over is the fact that it should be the ONLY disease agent that is that well correlated. And, as I mentioned earlier, things like active cytomegalovirus, active Epstein-Barr, active hepatitis infections are as highly associated. And there are a lot of other things associated, as well. So, step one may be satisfied for AIDS, but it certainly is problematic. (to be continued) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This information could benefit millions of people who have, or who will have the HIV virus. So please help to disseminate it by posting the episodes of this ongoing series to computer bulletin boards, and by posting hardcopies in public places, both on and off campus. John DiNardo The episodes of this and other series can be retrieved via anonymous ftp from the site: red.css.itd.umich.edu Log in with name "anonymous" or "ftp" and supply your e-mail address as the password. The files are kept in the directory /poli/Essays/Conspiracy Instructions for ftp retrieval are dependent upon what sort of system the user is on. On a UNIX machine, at the command prompt, type the following: ftp red.css.itd.umich.edu This may be different on IBMs and Vax systems. Archivist: Paul Southworth, pauls@css.itd.umich.edu