************ Topic 19 Mon Mar 12, 1990 SOFTSERV [NeilSchulman] at 19:21 EST Sub: Should Books Be Banned ... on GEnie? GEnie has decided that book titles which give the impression that the author or publisher advocates breaking the law are inappropriate on a responsible, "family" computer service. What do GEnie Clients think? 8 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 11, Topic 19 Message 1 Mon Mar 12, 1990 SOFTSERV [NeilSchulman] at 20:13 EST A few weeks back I uploaded a file called SOFTSERV.LST which was a list of titles that SoftServ has under contract, at the various stages of preparation. This was \only\ a list of book titles; there was no description or excerpts from any of the books. Some of the titles listed were from Loompanics Unlimited, which specializes in what they themselves describe as "unusual books." Here is an excerpt from the introduction to the Loompanics Catalog, to give you an idea of their bookselling philosophy: "Herein you will find controversial and unusual books on a wide variety of subjects. Most of these books cannot be found in even the largest libraries. The majority of them will never be seen in bookstores. ... So controversial are the books we offer that most magazines will not allow us to advertise. Bookstores and distributors will not carry our publications. Periodicals refuse to review our books. We know where we belong: \we are the lunatic fringe of the libertarian movement\. Because we do not believe in limits. We do not believe in laws, rules or regulations. We have contempt for censorship, secrecy, and dogmatism. We don't give a damn about being 'respectable.' We don't give a damn about anything except \your\ right to find out anything you want to know. Nothing is sacred to us, not even skepticism and self-reliance." A stronger and more unyielding defense of freedom of the press has nowhere else been seen. For their consistency of practicing what they preach, Loompanics Unlimited has been a source of endless trouble to all established institutional authority -- and a source of \lots\ of books for the 20,000 people who receive the Loompanics Unlimited Book catalog. If the contents of their books are not respectable, their sales figures are \very\ respectable by the standards of any New York publishing house. All of the above was why SoftServ, whose founders are likewise committed to the absolute right of people to read and write what they please, decided to become an electronic distributor for the titles Loompanics Unlimited publishes. It has never been SoftServ's intention to specialize in any area of publication. We are a generalist. It is our intention to build up a title list in the thousands, including classics, textbooks, fiction, nonfiction, reference works, current controversies, politics, history, and so forth, and so on, et cetera, ad nauseum. But one of GEnie's clients took one look at our list of upcoming books, saw some of the Loompanics titles on our list, and decided that SoftServ is some sort of sleazy, subversive, vanity-press operation, which a Respectable Company like General Electric shouldn't have anything to do with. This person sent a letter of complaint to William Louden, the General Manager of GEnie, and got on his case. The heat was on, and in short order I was being told by GEnie to get this list of titles the hell off their system. Let me start by saying that I value GEnie's clients. I hope to make them SoftServ Paperless Book Club members. But I have no bloody use for the sort of people who think they have the right to tell \other\ people what they can and can't read. That is \freedom\. If this person had written to me, rather than Mr. Louden, it is quite possible I would have told them to take their letter and put it where the sun don't shine: I have no patience with people who think their small-minded opinions are binding on others. If I had been temperate, I might have simply quoted Jesus and asked, "What is \this\ to \you\?" Regardless of how it started, GEnie has decided that Respectability is in fact their Guiding Light. Within contractual limits, that is their right. Since the agreement by which SoftServ is distributing our titles through GEnie was fairly informal, there arose a difference in interpretation regarding SoftServ's right to market our titles without any blocking by GEnie. As businesses must do if they are to remain in business, I found it necessary to reach an accommodation with GEnie. This accommodation will result in certain titles which SoftServ has under contract never being distributed on GEnie, and severe limits being placed on SoftServ's ability even to openly mention these titles. Such titles \will\ be made available on the off-GEnie computer bulletin board which SoftServ will be starting in the next few months. At least until the sheriff comes after us, at which point I may have to ask Gary Hudson to give our computers a lift to Low Earth Orbit, and hook up our modems to the nearest communications satellite. The point to all this is that, ultimately, the fight for a free press must be fought by those who wish the right to \read\ banned books. We writers, publishers, and distributors are much too subject to economic, political, and legal pressure to be able to hold out, regardless of our beliefs or intentions. I found myself having to make a decision between not selling some books on GEnie, or not selling \any\ books on GEnie. And, I am ashamed to say, I found very few people who advised me to stand my ground for the sake of principle. Principles seem to have little social value these days. This topic is now open to the rest of you. It is \your\ right to read what you wish that is being debated here. If you think you should be able to buy whatever you wish to read that someone has the author's right to sell, here's the place to post your opinion. I assure you that GEnie will note what is said here. If, on the other hand, you believe There Are Books that Man Was Not Meant To Read, you are entitled to post your opinion to that effect here, too. But don't expect me to agree. The floor is open. J. Neil Schulman, President SoftServ ------------ Category 11, Topic 19 Message 2 Mon Mar 12, 1990 J.FREEMAN6 [Jon Freeman] at 21:50 PST I have three points, the first of which requires \careful\ reading. One. I do think there are books (or movies or whatever) that should not be read, but I do \not\ believe my opinion should be \binding\ on anyone else. I don't go to see Mad Slasher movies; I can tell from the ads and the reviews that they are not - for me - worth seeing. That's what reviews are for. Widespread information obviates the need for censorship. Two. I would, of course, like to buy whatever books I want - even if other books I do not care for are also available. (I would hardly expect a bookstore - or any other establishment - to cater exclusively to \my\ taste.) Three. A free market is enormously attractive. (Surely we have all noticed events in Eastern Europe?) Freedom of choice is a comparative advantage. If GEnie restricts what is available, a market opportunity is created for another service willing to offer a broader selection of items. In a very short time, electronic distribution channels will proliferate wildly, and competition for customers will be extreme. Somehow I think freedom of choice will attract more customers than will anything that smacks of censorship... ------------ Category 11, Topic 19 Message 3 Tue Mar 13, 1990 SFWA-SOUKUP [Martha] at 21:50 EST Neil, I didn't find it my place to give you advice one way or another. If you'd chosen to fight GEnie on it, I would have certainly offered moral support (nothing more valuable than that, I'm afraid, but the moral support at least, for what it was worth). ------------ Category 11, Topic 19 Message 4 Tue Mar 13, 1990 SOFTSERV [NeilSchulman] at 22:16 EST I have been requested by several of SoftServ's publishers to mention that I have requested SoftServ business affiliates to refrain on commenting in this topic to give a chance for everyone else to say their piece unhampered. I will be observing my own request and not commenting here as well. Neil Schulman ------------ Category 11, Topic 19 Message 5 Wed Mar 14, 1990 J.ALBRECHT3 [J.ALBRECHT] at 00:28 EST I seem to be caught by my own principles here. Part of me wants to be in total agreement with Neil(for the first time ever) as regards censorship. For the most part I detest the idea of censorship in any form. Then I get those damned second thoughts... I would support the suppression of a book containing explicit kiddie pornography on the ground that the "participants" were unable to give free choice. I would support the suppression of a book containing actual torture of people or animals on the same grounds. Now that I've established that I am willing to "draw the arbitrary line" I'm not sure where to stop. I'd like to say that no ideas should ever be suppressed, but then some idiot will come along and say that molesting children is his idea of "free speech" and should be exempt. In theory, this is easy: NO censorship. In reality(objective or otherwise), shades of gray keep creeping in. Overall, I vote for no censorship---freedom gets the edge over my sensibilities. John ------------ Category 11, Topic 19 Message 6 Thu Mar 15, 1990 JF.TAYLOR [Jim Taylor] at 22:19 EST Let me add my voice, however small it might be to this topic. I've been a member of GEnie for several years. I find it troubling that the services that are offered to us *paying* clients would be restricted by a few closed minded people. If this is a community standards issue, then GEnie should consider the fact that it has a global community logging in. I don't want my access to information constrained by a one individual, especially when I am paying for this privilege. I have a older Loompanics catalog, and while I can understand that some might take offence with it, it is my right to read it. I think GEnie is living in a glass house when they want to censor a catalog while, at the same time, they allow other services online to sell computer games that glorify violence (although not my cup of tea, you should have access to them if you want them) and some that are very sexually suggestive. Hey, that's what free enterprise is all about. As a compromise (I hate compromises but sometimes they're a necessary evil) how about establishing a private section here on the R/T for those of us who want this information? Then those who are offended by it need not apply. Sort of the "magazines behind the counter" approach. Sincerely, James F. Taylor ------------ Category 11, Topic 19 Message 7 Fri Mar 16, 1990 D.DVORKIN at 16:41 MST Let's make that, "That's what *freedom* is all about." ------------ Category 11, Topic 19 Message 8 Sat Mar 17, 1990 RJOHNSON at 02:29 CST I wonder if there might be another reason why the GEnie management does not want these books online here. Maybe they are afraid of running into trouble with the Feds (DEA, IRS, FCC, FBI. etc.) if such books are allowed online. I know that local sysops will not allow such publications (or messages or files) on their boards because of the laws concerning telecommunications and illegal activities such as phone-phreaking. I don't know if these laws would matter here, but I imagine that neither GEnie nor a local BBS wants to be paying lawyers lots of money to challenge these laws in court. ------------