America Online APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG Tuesday, December 11, 1990 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time Topic: Pascal and C Programming Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet) DanW190 Just so happens that I'm learning Pascal right now..:) Got the ORCA/Pascal DanW190 Learn to Program :) AFL Dyfet Tonight our topic is Pascal and C programming. We AFL Dyfet will be discussing Complete Pascal (and their new Direct Connect area) as well AFL Dyfet as Orca/Pascal, Orca/C and APW C. AFL Dyfet And, it seems, Allison and Applefest as well :) AFA Gary J :) AFL Dyfet Okay, I think our first 'official' question or comment for tonight was from AFL Dyfet Dan in regards to Orca/Pascal. How do you like Orca/Pascal so far? AFA Gary J Ooops. He got bumped (looks like). AFL Dyfet (Dan left or bumped...?) AFA Gary J Must be bumped. AFL Dyfet Okay, while we're waiting for Dan to return, does anyone else have any C or AFL Dyfet Pascal questions for tonight? AFL Dyfet Go ahead Windrider... Windrider5 How much of a difference is there between Orca/C and APWC Windrider5 Is it worth switching? AFL Dyfet Well, first off, Orca/C is ANSI standard.... AFL Dyfet It also includes code optimization, and generally seems to create smaller and AFL Dyfet faster executables. AFL Dyfet Does anyone else wish to comment on Orca/C vs. APW/C ? AFA Gary J Also, Orca/C seems to have more support :) AFA Gary J (As far as updates go, that is) AFL Dyfet Okay, it seems Walstib has the next question...GA Wal.... Walstib1 What are the advantages of complete pascal? and is it available? AFL Dyfet Complete Pascal is available seperately and as an upgrade for existing TML AFL Dyfet customers. I do not recall the details off-hand, but I am sure someone in the AFL Dyfet Complete DC area will be able to help you get ahold of it :). As to it's AFL Dyfet advantages over Orca/Pascal, I have not used Orca/Pascal myself, so if somebody AFL Dyfet else would wish to share what they have found using both packages... Doctor Why Complete vs ORCA or TML vs ORCA? AFL Dyfet Really Complete vs Orca... Doctor Why Sorry then. I do have TML and ORCA AFL Dyfet Okay, how did you feel about each of those then, Why? Doctor Why Well, TML Pascal is a stand alone application. Where ORCA Pascal can be linked Doctor Why with modules coded in other languages. Doctor Why The people that liked the TML Pascal usually liked the speed of the compile Doctor Why and link compared to ORCA. However, the introduction of ZapLink has reduced the Doctor Why difference. For me, I feel that ORCA is more versatile, and fits my style. Doctor Why GA Walstib1 thanxs. I have one more quick one ok. AFL Dyfet Okay Walstib...GA... Walstib1 I want to make stratego for the gs but can't figure out how to write the AI for Walstib1 the computer player does anyone have any ideas where I can turn to. I have most Walstib1 everthing else planned out but haven't started making any serious code for it. Walstib1 but this seems to be the hardest hurdle(sp? Walstib1 ) to get over. AFL Dyfet I know there are a few books out there on general game theory/AI programming, AFL Dyfet but most are on the theoretical side.... Matt DTS Look at it this way: If there was a book called "How to write Stratego for the IIgs", it wouldn't Matt DTS be nearly as much fun. :) Walstib1 No doubt Matt :) AFA Gary J I think you'd pretty much have to have the computer analyse the situation, much AFA Gary J as if you were there playing the game. It would have to check each player AFA Gary J position, etc. and see if a move is possible in that location, and if in fact AFA Gary J it would be a wise move to make. It depends on how you keep the internals of AFA Gary J your game, so that's about as specific as I can get :) AFL Dyfet Much of game theory that I've seen is derived from Chess programs...basically, AFL Dyfet you use some method to statiscally come up with a number representing the AFL Dyfet relative 'merit' of any arrangement of pieces, and then try to find arrangement AFL Dyfet s which have a higher value than the current situation. AFL Dyfet Then again, some of the best 'smart' war games used rnd( a lot :) AFL Dyfet GA Scott... AFA Gary J :) AFL Scott A few months back there was a nice article on parallelism in Byte. I don't know if there is AFL Scott a GS application for it as most parallel schemes seem to depend on multi processor configurations. GA Walstib1 my best bet and easiest way to get it rolling would be to start out at random Walstib1 and then as each game piece is exposed and it's value is learned I could then Walstib1 set up a look up table which would tell the best probablity of the game piece AFL Dyfet Kinda like card counting :) Walstib1 being succsefull in it's next move. AFL Dyfet GA Scott... AFL Scott Isn't this really complicated by the play in Stratego? I mean, the computer wouldn't AFL Scott know (just as in real life) what player piece is which? Seems to me that you would almost have to AFL Scott be super flexible in the computers move choices based on known play AFL Scott patterns, no? AFL Dyfet It could assign an average value to the unknown peices based on what's left AFL Dyfet from what is known. AFL Scott Done.. Sorry... it was really a question. :) Walstib1 yeah it would have to interperate the opposing players files in order to capture the flag. a Walstib1 but that since when you play now when one of your players hits a bomb you Walstib1 would think that the flag is nearby and then could zero in on that area of Walstib1 the board Walstib1 like you would normally do when playing AFA Gary J That is one strategy (but a "smart" player may also recognize a decoy :) Walstib1 afl Dyfet, if I did assign on numbers I think that would take to long and eat Walstib1 up to much proccessor time. AFA Gary J GA, Scott AFL Scott Perhaps a good program to look at would be Mike Westerfields implementation of Reversi. AFL Scott Done. AFA Gary J Very good suggestion, Scott. Walstib1 scott that's a good idea I'll look at the code after this I do own orca pascal AFA Gary J (It's even in the languages of topic tonight :) Walstib1 yeah I'm done too, thanxs alot! AFA Gary J Ok (you still AFK, Dyfet?) AFA Gary J Let's move on to Nuzz's question. GA, Mike. Nuzz I have a memory/tool related question. While working with MidiSynth, I noticed Nuzz that even after I shut it down and unloaded it, there were a few handles still Nuzz active. My question is: Could I do a Disposeall (4023) and could I delete the Nuzz id. GA Nuzz Matt, Dave? anyone? AFA Gary J GA, Dave :) Dave Lyons Good question! I was just looking at that the other day, and it does appear that the Dave Lyons tool isn't cleaning up after itself properly. Dave Lyons The problem would be killing handle out from underneath the Loader, which expects the handle Dave Lyons only to be purged and not disposed of (the Code handles, at least). Dave Lyons I may have to get back to you with a real answer on that, once I see whether what synthLab is doing Dave Lyons is a good solution. Nuzz Synth lab also has a problem in that after you use Synthlab, a LodOneTool call Nuzz fails with tool 35 Nuzz without reboot that is Dave Lyons Ah--that sounds like a good clue that handles *are* being disposed out from under the Loader. Dave Lyons Not good...I have an idea that I'll have to try out, Dave Lyons and I'll get back to you. Nuzz Ok, just keep in mind that without running Synthlab, you could load the tool Nuzz all you want without nasty effects Dave Lyons Yes, I think synthLab is doing a DisposeAll(4023), which isn't good--since UnloadOneTool or Dave Lyons TLShutDown marked the code handles purgable so the Loader can try to restart it from memory Dave Lyons later. When the handles actually get disposed and re-used by some other Memory Manager client, the Dave Lyons Restart later thinks some other random data is the TOOL035 code. Dave Lyons Nuzz, please send your comments in to AIIDTS so they realize something's going on, and I'll come Dave Lyons up with a suitable workaround. Nuzz will do Dave. Thanks Dave Lyons (ga) AFA Gary J Ok, the question queue is empty! Any other questions this evening? AFA Gary J GA, Floyd AFL Floyd A user has reported a problem with my FileTools CDA and programs that have MIDI input. It seems that AFL Floyd with my CDA installed, some of these programs don't work correctly or crash. Can just the fact that AFL Floyd a CDA is installed mess up an application? I mean, could this be my fault somehow? AFL Floyd ga AFA Gary J GA, Dave Dave Lyons Floyd, assuming you don't have any heartbeat tasks, AFL Floyd (nope) Dave Lyons don't trash any memory during your "Shutdown" routine, Dave Lyons don't patch tools or vectors, and the user hasn't entered your CDA yet, Dave Lyons it doesn't sound like your fault! Dave Lyons Very possibly the AFL Floyd (nope, nope & nope) Dave Lyons applications that are crashing are sensitive to the placement of their segments in memory (their Dave Lyons fault!), like accidentally assuming two segments are in the same bank. Hard to speculate without Dave Lyons seeing their code. Dave Lyons (ga) AFA Gary J :) AFL Floyd Okay. Just as I thought. Thanks for confirming though. :) AFA Gary J Floyd, do you know which programs are having problems? AFL Floyd Uh, not off the top of my head. I think one was MasterTracks. I'm not up on computer music stuff. :) AFA Gary J I have a Midi, but no MasterTracks :) If it's a program I have, I'll be glad AFA Gary J to test it out. AFA Gary J Ok, any other question this evening? AFL Dyfet Back... AFA Gary J (FileTools is GREAT, BTW, Floyd :) Walstib1 Yeah filetools is excellent just what I needed! AFL Floyd Thanks. :) AFL Dyfet Okay, do we have any other topics for tonight? AFL Floyd Has anyone tested FileTools on a network? AFL Dyfet Or maybe I can bring up Command.COM :) AFA Gary J :) AFL Dyfet GA Marty... AFL Marty Has the file format for HyperCard IIGS documents been released yet? Nuzz Marty, I beleive that it will not be made public AFL Dyfet I don't recall it being in the latest filetype technote.... AFL Dyfet GA Dave... Dave Lyons It's not out there now, and I don't know whether it's going to be or not; Dave Lyons I do know it has a lot in common with the Macintosh HyperCard stack format, which has not been Dave Lyons published. AFL Marty Jim Merritt seemed to indicate at last night's AppleFest chat that it was AFL Marty available. Perhaps I misunderstood him. Dave Lyons However, there is an application Dave Lyons called HyperMover available from APDA that will convert stacks from an intermediate Text format Dave Lyons into HyperCard IIgs stacks. (Not sure if it's two-way or not, but it's half of the process for Dave Lyons porting a Macintosh stack to the GS.) AFL Marty Can HyperMover HyperMove itself? Dave Lyons Jim Merritt may know more than I do about the Dave Lyons situation! Dave Lyons I -think- the GS half of HyperMover is an application rather than a stack; not sure. Nuzz Marty, there are 2 HyperMovers. One for Mac, the other for GS Nuzz both are stacks Nuzz and its a one way conversion Dave Lyons Of course, if you've got XCMDs in your Mac stack, you need to write GS versions of them to port. AFL Marty Let me rephrase... AFL Marty Can the Macintosh HyperMover be used on itself to create a stack which AFL Marty is capable of converting Macintosh stacks without requiring one to AFL Marty own a Macintosh? Nuzz LOL Marty.... Don't think so AFA Gary J I understand the entire reasoning of Marty's question :) Nuzz but it will move a copy of itself... Minus xcmds and such AFL Dyfet Kinda like Baron Munchauhsan pulling himself up by his own suspenders :) AFA Gary J :) AFL Marty Is there some valid technical reason why a Macintosh is required just to AFL Marty convert stacks to HCGS format? Nuzz wouldn't that be neat though :) AFL Dyfet Yes it would :) Doctor Why To sell Macs... AFL Marty (The operative words there were "valid technical") Doctor Why :) Doctor Why To Marketing that might be "valid technical" AFL Dyfet I would like to see stack movers to go the other direction... AFL Dyfet Some of us who DONT own Macs may also write neat stacks :) Dave Lyons (I think at least the Mac HyperMover goes both ways; I don't know that for sure, though.) Nuzz don't think the Mac HyperMover reads GS stacks AFL Scott Interesting! AFL Scott Apart from using XCMDs one wonders if there is a way to change the text background (so one can AFL Scott draw text in color on top of another color). Nuzz I'll tell you one thing. Martys innovativness is typical of an Apple II user :) AFA Gary J Certainly :) AFL Marty Re: Scott question... for example.. White text on a black background. AFL Dyfet GA Marty AFL Marty Does someone have an answer to Scott's question? Nuzz which machine are you talking about scott AFL Marty Talking about HCGS, Mike. AFL Dyfet What machine has color in HC, Nuzz ;) Nuzz Oh, yea, guess you are Right. Nuzz Yes, you can print text over color. AFL Marty How? Nuzz Not sure if it works in a field though. AFL Marty Everything I've tried puts the text against a white background. Nuzz The text from the tool menu should do that AFL Scott Same here.. Was trying the Text tool to no avail when porting the Excellent Stacks. AFL Marty Tried that. I can't change the background color though. Nuzz I'll look at that Marty. Not sure if you have to change the backgroung color of Nuzz the field Nuzz Oh, go to background, then paint the whole thing AFL Dyfet :) AFL Marty I was hoping for alternate solution :) AFL Marty (Like the way HyperStudio handles it) AFA Gary J :) Nuzz I'll try it and get back to you AFL Marty Thanks AFL Dyfet Excellent stacks Scott?? AFL Scott Something we did last year... AFL Scott For a contest. AFA Gary J Oh, HyperStudio then. Nuzz My stacks all look the same :( AFL Dyfet I have that problem too Nuzz :o AFL Marty Scott & Marty's Excellent Stacks :) AFA Gary J They just don't stack up, eh Dyfet? :) AFL Marty ack! Nuzz oooh AFL Dyfet He's my AFA alright :) AFA Gary J :) AFL Marty You're such a card, Gary :) AFA Gary J Hahah :) Nuzz Welcome to the AII Pun Forum