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Topic: Balancing AN+NM => ???? formula
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Einstein
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posted June 20, 2002 07:19 PM
I thought that someone could tell me how do I balance this reaction?
NH4NO3 + CH3NO2 => H2O + CO2 + NO!2
This is taken straight from the Ragnar Bensons C-4 video, and I don't know exactly, what that "!" thing is doing in the formula??? And PLEASE, IF someone has balanced this reaction, then he/she could write it here, ok? Thanks!
-------------------- Only genious can control chaos.
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mongo blongo
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posted June 20, 2002 07:28 PM
I'm not sure if I believe you that you are Einstein.
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rc
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posted June 21, 2002 12:09 PM
ANNM at any proportions has negative oxygen balance which means combustion by explosion forms other gases than dioxides and water. Those other gases, i think, are carbon monoxide, hydrogen, nitrogen and nitrogen oxide.
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Mad Scientist
A New Voice
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posted June 21, 2002 02:00 PM
You aren't going to get raw hydrogen gas as a product of detonating ANNM. You'll get carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide (if the oxygen balance for your composition is negative), water vapor, nitrogen, possibly slight traces of hydrocarbons (if your composition is very oxygen negative), and tiny amounts of nitrogen oxides (if the oxygen balance for your composition is positive). Even if you managed to detonate straight nitromethane, you won't get hydrogen gas as a product. Taking thermodynamics into consideration, I believe this is what would occur:
8CH3NO2 --> 10H2O + C2H4 + 6CO + 4N2
Edit: And by the way, I'm hoping that people like Mick will see that it is pointless to try to flame my brains out for existing... [ June 21, 2002, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Mad Scientist ]
-------------------- Dude, try detonating some nitrogen buckyballs. It's crack for the senses.
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Mr Cool
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posted June 22, 2002 07:10 AM
Mad Scientist: do you seriously believe that you're going to get significant amounts of ethene from detonating CH3NO2? The approximate equation would be CH3NO2 --> CO + H2O + 0.5 H2 + 0.5 N2. You will get H2 from detonating a suitably oxygen defficient HE, C reduces H2O to get H2 and CO. Another example: C6H2(NO2)3CH3 -~-> 6 CO + 1.5 N2 + C + 2.5 H2 is the approximate detonation equation for TNT.
If you wanted a perfect OB for your ANNM, the approximate equation would be: 3 NH4NO3 + 2 CH3NO2 --> 2 CO2 + 9 H2O + 4 N2 Meaning 66.3% AN, 33.7% NM.
-------------------- "Nothing makes a man fear much, more than to know little." - Francis Bacon.
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xoo1246
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posted June 22, 2002 08:29 AM
NH4NO3 OB= +20 CH3NO2 OB = -39.3 (100-x) * 20 = x * 39.3 =>
(CH3NO2) x= 33.7 % (NH4NO3) 100 - x = 66.3 %
Yep, Mr. Cool you are right.
-------------------- "Propaganda is to a democracy what violence is to a dictatorship." "The market knows the price of everything but the value of nothing."
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DBSP
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posted June 22, 2002 09:29 AM
A nother way to equal the OB would be to add some CH3OH. Thus you wouldn't need to use ad much CH3NO2.
-------------------- http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/
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Mad Scientist
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posted June 22, 2002 07:32 PM
8mol CH3NO2 --> 10mol H2O + 1mol C2H4 + 6mol CO + 4mol N2 + 2376kJ
8mol CH3NO2 --> 8mol CO + 8mol H2O + 4mol H2 + 4mol N2 + 2136kJ
The first decomposition reaction clearly is favorable.
Yes, some explosives do liberate hydrogen and pure carbon when they are detonated - aromatic compounds. Take trinitrotoluene, for example.
2C6H2(NO2)3CH3 --> 9CO + 3H2O + 2C2H2 + C
Acetylene is not thermally stable; it decomposes into carbon and hydrogen.
9CO + 3H2O + 2C2H2 + C --> 9CO + 3H2O + 5C + 2H2
-------------------- Dude, try detonating some nitrogen buckyballs. It's crack for the senses.
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Mr Cool
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posted June 25, 2002 03:12 PM
Hmmm... actually I think you're right, about the second reaction being more exothermic at least. I must confess that I did no calculations, I was just working with a general rule for dealing with detonations/combustions. Although it is worth bearing in mind that it's probably not only thermodynamic favourability that decides... kinetic stability, reaction rates, Chatelier's (sp?) principles etc will play a part. I guess that's why there are so many different products in reality.
Could you please post the bond enthalpies that you used to work those figures out? I was going to work it out but it's pointless if you're using a different set of figures.
-------------------- "Nothing makes a man fear much, more than to know little." - Francis Bacon.
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Mad Scientist
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posted July 01, 2002 11:10 PM
CC (single bond) 356Kj/mol CC (double bond) 598Kj/mol CC (triple bond) 813Kj/mol CO (double bond - the one found in carbon monoxide) 1073Kj/mol NN (triple bond) 946Kj/mol OH (single bond) 467Kj/mol CH (single bond) 416Kj/mol HH (single bond) 436Kj/mol CN (single bond) 285Kj/mol
The final one I had to calculate myself...
NO (double bond - the one found in nitric acid, nitrates, etceteras) 449Kj/mol
-------------------- Dude, try detonating some nitrogen buckyballs. It's crack for the senses.
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kingspaz
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posted July 02, 2002 06:53 PM
aren't all those bond enthalpies supposed to be negative?
-------------------- The unexamined life is not worth living to a human
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Pu239 Stuchtiger
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posted July 02, 2002 08:09 PM
Too bad he can't contribute anymore.
I believe Mad Scientist has it right.
-------------------- An optimist is like a child who covers his eyes when he hides - he believes that what he doesn't see doesn't exist.
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Mr Cool
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posted July 03, 2002 12:41 PM
Bond entahlpies are neither positive or negative, they're just magnitudes. This is because that is the amount of energy released when the bond forms, or it is the amount of energy needed to break the bond. So it will be positive or negative, depending on what it's being used for.
I wonder what figure he used for the N-->O dative single bond...?
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kingspaz
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posted July 03, 2002 06:16 PM
mr cool, that is correct. i've just been taught to work with the enthalpy of bond formation. don't dative bonds have exactly the same enthalpy as normal bonds since its the same thing as a normal bond just using electrons both from the same atom to fill the orbital?
-------------------- The unexamined life is not worth living to a human
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