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» The Explosives and Weapons Forum   » Science and Information   » Chemistry Related   » Balancing AN+NM => ???? formula

   
Author Topic: Balancing AN+NM => ???? formula
Einstein
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Icon 5 posted June 20, 2002 07:19 PM      Profile for Einstein   Email Einstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I thought that someone could tell me how do I balance this reaction?

NH4NO3 + CH3NO2 => H2O + CO2 + NO!2

This is taken straight from the Ragnar Bensons C-4 video, and I don't know exactly, what that "!" thing is doing in the formula??? And PLEASE, IF someone has balanced this reaction, then he/she could write it here, ok? Thanks!

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mongo blongo
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Icon 18 posted June 20, 2002 07:28 PM      Profile for mongo blongo   Author's Homepage   Email mongo blongo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm not sure if I believe you that you are Einstein. [Big Grin]

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rc
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Icon 22 posted June 21, 2002 12:09 PM      Profile for rc   Email rc   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
ANNM at any proportions has negative oxygen balance which means combustion by explosion forms other gases than dioxides and water. Those other gases, i think, are carbon monoxide, hydrogen, nitrogen and nitrogen oxide.
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Mad Scientist
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Icon 1 posted June 21, 2002 02:00 PM      Profile for Mad Scientist   Author's Homepage   Email Mad Scientist   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You aren't going to get raw hydrogen gas as a product of detonating ANNM. You'll get carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide (if the oxygen balance for your composition is negative), water vapor, nitrogen, possibly slight traces of hydrocarbons (if your composition is very oxygen negative), and tiny amounts of nitrogen oxides (if the oxygen balance for your composition is positive). Even if you managed to detonate straight nitromethane, you won't get hydrogen gas as a product. Taking thermodynamics into consideration, I believe this is what would occur:

8CH3NO2 --> 10H2O + C2H4 + 6CO + 4N2

Edit:
And by the way, I'm hoping that people like Mick will see that it is pointless to try to flame my brains out for existing... [Roll Eyes]

[ June 21, 2002, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Mad Scientist ]

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Dude, try detonating some nitrogen buckyballs. It's crack for the senses.

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Mr Cool
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Icon 1 posted June 22, 2002 07:10 AM      Profile for Mr Cool   Author's Homepage   Email Mr Cool   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mad Scientist: do you seriously believe that you're going to get significant amounts of ethene from detonating CH3NO2?
The approximate equation would be CH3NO2 --> CO + H2O + 0.5 H2 + 0.5 N2.
You will get H2 from detonating a suitably oxygen defficient HE, C reduces H2O to get H2 and CO.
Another example: C6H2(NO2)3CH3 -~-> 6 CO + 1.5 N2 + C + 2.5 H2 is the approximate detonation equation for TNT.

If you wanted a perfect OB for your ANNM, the approximate equation would be:
3 NH4NO3 + 2 CH3NO2 --> 2 CO2 + 9 H2O + 4 N2
Meaning 66.3% AN, 33.7% NM.

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xoo1246
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Icon 1 posted June 22, 2002 08:29 AM      Profile for xoo1246   Author's Homepage   Email xoo1246   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
NH4NO3 OB= +20
CH3NO2 OB = -39.3
(100-x) * 20 = x * 39.3 =>

(CH3NO2) x= 33.7 %
(NH4NO3) 100 - x = 66.3 %

Yep, Mr. Cool you are right.

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DBSP
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Icon 1 posted June 22, 2002 09:29 AM      Profile for DBSP   Author's Homepage   Email DBSP   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A nother way to equal the OB would be to add some CH3OH. Thus you wouldn't need to use ad much CH3NO2.

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Mad Scientist
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Icon 1 posted June 22, 2002 07:32 PM      Profile for Mad Scientist   Author's Homepage   Email Mad Scientist   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
8mol CH3NO2 --> 10mol H2O + 1mol C2H4 + 6mol CO + 4mol N2 + 2376kJ

8mol CH3NO2 --> 8mol CO + 8mol H2O + 4mol H2 + 4mol N2 + 2136kJ

The first decomposition reaction clearly is favorable.

Yes, some explosives do liberate hydrogen and pure carbon when they are detonated - aromatic compounds. Take trinitrotoluene, for example.

2C6H2(NO2)3CH3 --> 9CO + 3H2O + 2C2H2 + C

Acetylene is not thermally stable; it decomposes into carbon and hydrogen.

9CO + 3H2O + 2C2H2 + C --> 9CO + 3H2O + 5C + 2H2

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Dude, try detonating some nitrogen buckyballs. It's crack for the senses.

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Mr Cool
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Icon 1 posted June 25, 2002 03:12 PM      Profile for Mr Cool   Author's Homepage   Email Mr Cool   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hmmm... actually I think you're right, about the second reaction being more exothermic at least. I must confess that I did no calculations, I was just working with a general rule for dealing with detonations/combustions.
Although it is worth bearing in mind that it's probably not only thermodynamic favourability that decides... kinetic stability, reaction rates, Chatelier's (sp?) principles etc will play a part. I guess that's why there are so many different products in reality.

Could you please post the bond enthalpies that you used to work those figures out? I was going to work it out but it's pointless if you're using a different set of figures.

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Mad Scientist
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Icon 1 posted July 01, 2002 11:10 PM      Profile for Mad Scientist   Author's Homepage   Email Mad Scientist   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
CC (single bond) 356Kj/mol
CC (double bond) 598Kj/mol
CC (triple bond) 813Kj/mol
CO (double bond - the one found in carbon monoxide) 1073Kj/mol
NN (triple bond) 946Kj/mol
OH (single bond) 467Kj/mol
CH (single bond) 416Kj/mol
HH (single bond) 436Kj/mol
CN (single bond) 285Kj/mol

The final one I had to calculate myself...

NO (double bond - the one found in nitric acid, nitrates, etceteras) 449Kj/mol

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Dude, try detonating some nitrogen buckyballs. It's crack for the senses.

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kingspaz
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Icon 1 posted July 02, 2002 06:53 PM      Profile for kingspaz   Email kingspaz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
aren't all those bond enthalpies supposed to be negative?

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Pu239 Stuchtiger
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Icon 1 posted July 02, 2002 08:09 PM      Profile for Pu239 Stuchtiger   Author's Homepage   Email Pu239 Stuchtiger   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Too bad he can't contribute anymore.

I believe Mad Scientist has it right. [Smile]

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Mr Cool
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Icon 1 posted July 03, 2002 12:41 PM      Profile for Mr Cool   Author's Homepage   Email Mr Cool   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bond entahlpies are neither positive or negative, they're just magnitudes. This is because that is the amount of energy released when the bond forms, or it is the amount of energy needed to break the bond. So it will be positive or negative, depending on what it's being used for.

I wonder what figure he used for the N-->O dative single bond...?

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kingspaz
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Icon 1 posted July 03, 2002 06:16 PM      Profile for kingspaz   Email kingspaz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
mr cool, that is correct. i've just been taught to work with the enthalpy of bond formation. don't dative bonds have exactly the same enthalpy as normal bonds since its the same thing as a normal bond just using electrons both from the same atom to fill the orbital?

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