============================================================================= Criticism to the Methcathinone FAQ ============================================================================= From: randall.braun@gecits.ge.com (epibatidine) Newsgroups: alt.drugs.chemistry;,rec.drugs.chemistry Subject: Cold CAT Chemistry Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 20:19:28 GMT There are some technical problems in the 'cold cat synthesis' method described in the Methcathinone FAQ.: WARNING: If you don't understand basic chemical principles, the following discussion may not mean a shit to you. 1. You need to be aware that the solubility of KMnO4 varies with temperature. The solubility increases with temperature. The solubilty is given as 7.43g/100ml @ 25c; CRC Handbook lists it as 6.84? at 20c. Just beware of this when you make the saturated solution (SS) and when you measure out the volume for the dilution. Do this at ~25c (78f) or suffer the consequences. If you do at refrig. temp., your SS may have insufficient KMnO4 for complete oxidation. 2. The calculations were made using the MW of (pseud)ephedrine base (MW=165.23) instead of (pseud)ephedrine HCl (MW=201.69). Most people attempting this recipe will no doubt be using pseudephedrine HCl derived from sudafed/generic. 3. If you are using (pseud)ephedrine sulfate (dihydrate) instead the hydrochloride, the MW=428.53. REMEMBER that sulfate is a divalent anion, so you have two molar equivalents of ephedrine for each mole of ephedrine sulfate. 4. I've redone the calculations using the correct values. Since this is kitchen chemistry, in the end the recipe will work OK as it is written, as the recalculations show that the required volumes don't change enough to matter with kitchen chem (in)accuracy. This is true even with the sulfate, as the MW of the sulfate is roughly equivalent to two times the MW of the hydrochloride. 5. If you desire to calculate your yield, remember that CAT has almost the same MW as (pseud)ephedrine ( you're only removing two hydrogens). Also remember that you are creating potassium chloride (and possibly sulfate) salts. Calculate the number of moles of KMnO4 (MW=158.03) you added to the rxn mixture. You should have roughly the same number of moles of potassium chloride (MW=74.55) in your final product; figure grams from this value. You need to subtract this value from your final product weight. Theoretically 100% yield would be about the same number of grams of (pseud)ephedrine you started with, as CAT has almost the same MW as (pseud)ephedrine. If you used the sulfate, the same should be true (within kitchem chem accuracy). It is possible that the CAT salt is hydrated, but I've seen no indication of this in any of the published literature; in any case, this shouldn't significantly effect kitchen chem yield calculations. For the curious, it is possible that you can get some mixed (pseud)ephedrine postassium sulfate (remember that sulfate is divalent) product if you started with (pseud)ephedrine sulfate. 6. If you washed your product, or did an acid-base extraction to remove the potassium salts. Take this fact into consideration in calculating the yield. On the other hand, if you even understand this discussion, you probably already knew that!! ============================================================================= Subject: Potential Problems with CAT FAQ, my v.2 Date: 2 Feb 1998 23:14:37 +0100 I happened to be with a friend over the weekend who was doing a CAT synthesis just like in the CAT FAQ. Now he had done it successfully before, but in this case I was around to take a look at the technique and add my two cents. I saw several potential problems: 1. The synthesis is imprecise on the subject of whether the solution becomes basic as the oxidation progresses. From my calculations, some but not all of the HCl from the ephedrine salt is used up in the end as KCl is crystalized out. KOH is a much stronger base than CAT, so it follows that the Cl- goes to the K in preference to the CAT. Thus there is always some un-neutralized CAT in the mixture. Thus the need to add extra HCl at the end. Unneutralized CAT is very problematic as it is very unstable towards cyclization which is irreversible. I told my friend to add an equimolar amount (to pot permanganate used) of HCl to the mixture towards the end. This worked out well, as we got a nice dry CAT HCl and KCl mixture at crystalization. However, I would want to be careful even about the addition of HCl to permanganate and manganese dioxide as both liberate chlorine from it. Free chlorine will split up ephedrine or CAT. Perhaps H2SO4 is a better choice. 2. The famed "pistacchio" smell is suspect. I do know that CAT base and its salts have distinctive ketone smell and tast respectively. However, I believe several of the syntheses report the smell as the reaction progresses. My experience is that you won't smell anything unless the solution is basified. If you do smell a nutty like substance it is BENZALDEHYDE, the ruination of ephedrine. Along those lines an experiment was conducted with bleaching liquid (5.25% sodium hypchlorite). 1g of ephedrine HCl was reacted with an equimolar amount of bleach at 2degrees C along with 100ml of vinegar. The immediate smell of chlorine was noted, and the solution let sit for a couple of hours. Later the solution was basified, and lo and behold there was that wonderful "pistacchio" smell of benzaldehyde. Now if anyone thinks this was CAT they can try it themselves and see if they can get off. If you don't know what benzaldehyde smells like, just go to the store and buy some "almond extract". We didn't try to ingest the stuff, as who knows what chlorinated crap might have been in there, like chloroephedrine. Therefore, you can draw two conclusions: either I AM CORREST OR- BLEACH CAN BE USED TO MAKE CAT, if you believe the smell was CAT instead of benzaldehyde- it was very strong- every ephedrine molecule must have been converted into something. As I said, we didn't ingest it, so maybe we are wrong and we would have had the most righteous high ever :) :) Another experiment was tried where ephedrine base was reacted with bleach and sodium bicarbonate to maintain basic conditions in the cold. No acid was added. It sat for a few hours, apparently unchanged, but I'm not certain as the ephedrine ended up with a kind of chlorinated tast. No benzaldehyde smell in that case. I wonder what might happen with more vigorous conditions, as there was one report somewhere of CAT being made via calcium hypochlorite. Anyway, I've got to take a Khatnap now. Too much experimentation is hard on the body. Cheers, Pugsley. ============================================================================= Subject: Ephedrine/Cat doesn't smell like almonds!!! Date: 1998/05/26 Newsgroups: alt.drugs.chemistry Ever wonder why all these idiots think that Cat is barely worth the effort? Total misinformation. Put this on Hyper-unreal, you idiots: Cat does not smell like almonds or pistachio ice-cream. Benzaldehyde does. Its the chemical you get when you screw up the reaction. You can easily prove this by adding some ephedrine to bleach. Do you think you can make cat with bleach? No, you can't, but you can oxidize the hell out of the molecule. A real (but not hyper :) Cat synthesis uses vinegar as the reaction liquid (instead of neutral pH) with a small quantity of permanganate. When the reaction is over, the liquid is quickly basified, and the solution extracted with chloroform or TCE, which inhibits conversion to the inactive cyclo product. No almond smell has ever been evidenced with this reaction, yet it produces Cat. The organic solvent is evaporated almost to dryness, where a small amount of 6M H2SO4 is added. There is some heating and the rest of the organic evaporates, leaving a water solution of Cat sulfate, which can then be evaporated further to get a solid. cheers, Gomez ============================================================================= Subject: Re: Ephedrine/Cat doesn't smell like almonds!!! From: gowo@NOSPAM.erols.com (Lone Ranger) Date: 1998/05/29 Newsgroups: alt.drugs.chemistry Gomez, I must disagree with you on a few points. First, the reason many people do not think it is worth the effort is because they know what methamphetamine is, and expect good things of 50mg doses of CAT. This is unrealistic. CAT abuse exists, but typically 1 gram/day and up. That would be a hell of a lot of methamphetamine! Great expectations make for great dissapointment. Second, the H2SO4/Chromic acid (whether formed from another chromate or added directly) is a very well documented and high yield method of doing this simple oxidation. Your hypochlorous method may also be fine, but there is no reason to blindly nullify all other methods. Third, the likelyhood of the cleavage occuring of which you speak is slim. Many side reactions can occur to a small degree, but benzaldehyde cannot be the main product. Jones reagant just will not do that. However, my very old notes from a land far away where such things are legal, indicate they I was most pleased when the reaction was done in an ice bath. I did this because literature indicated that yields could be improved, and also on the theory that one never adds more heat than needed. Lastly, perhaps you put too much emphasis on someone's description of odor. The smell is different from either ephedrine or methamphetamine, in a fruity, pleasant sort of way. This is typical of ketones. But to desribe it in such a way as to make it possible for someone else to identify CAT is likely impossible. If someone suggested almonds, it would not mean that cyanide is produced. While ephedrine mixed in bleach might suggest an odor to you that seems like it might be similar to the one described, this is obviously meningless. Perhaps the odor is similar, or perhaps it was described to you poorly. If benzaldehyde was produced it would evaporate after extracting the product and drying it. As it left, so would it'd odor. Since the chromate methods do not give 100% yields, and doing the reaction cold seems to help a little, I will not say that it is impossible to poduce traces of this chemical. Only that it doesn't matter. While your synth may well be wonderful, let's not say that therefore all others suck! The proof would be in a comparison of yields after purification. The chromate methods give easily 50%, but this could be dissapointing to a meth person. He uses 100 30mg pills, and ends up wil a 12 hour supply of CAT! He could have had a weeks worth or meth (well a few days anyway). Lone Ranger ============================================================================= Subject: Cat, Benzaldehyde, and bogus syntheses Date: 1998/06/01 Newsgroups: alt.drugs.chemistry Regarding the anonymous poster and Lone Ranger's reply to "...cat does not smell like almonds...": I feel I have to comment since the whole issue was raised originally in one of my posts a long time ago and now archived on Lycaeum. My main points: It is true that the neutral chilled H2O solution method of permanganate synthesis of cat does produce mainly benzaldehyde and varying small amounts of cat. Ephedrine when exposed to a basic solution of bleach produces an intermediate compound which in a short amount of time converts into benzaldehyde. The intermediate is unknown. Regarding the chromic acid method, the poster made no comments about it and neither will I. I have no experience with it, since I was always able to make very pure cat with my own acidic permanganate synthesis, so I never bothered. The free cat base does have its own unique smell, but definitely not like pistachio ice cream or almond extract. It is more along the lines of other aromatic amines, like 4-MA base. I assume that someone a long time ago was successful in making cat along with some benzaldehyde and then erroniously concluded that cat smelled like this. Chemists can argue and argue about the mechanisms regarding the formation of benzaldehyde, but the empirical results show that it is produced each and every time from the neutral cat synthesis. Chemistry in the real world does not always conform to some text book equations. Especially when it comes to powerful oxidations. Permanganate is capable of oxidizing many other substances, so who knows what impurity etc might be helping out. All I know is that reasonable diligance was used incorporating pure reagents, H2O, etc. (If the synthesis requires being done under helium, then perhaps its not very good for the home chemist :) just kidding) It may be noted as an interesting aside that its possible to produce 3,4 benzaldehyde from safrol using similar oxidations. Although I would use ozone for the best yield. Finally, adding ephedrine to a solution of bleach and bicarbonate, letting it sit for a couple of hours, and then washing and drying, produces some intermediate that eventually converts to benzaldehyde. I am very curious whether the intermediate chemical is psychoactive, but then curiosity killed the cat, as adding halogens to psychoacive chemicals usually either produces a more powerful drug- or produces a very toxic drug. Lastly, no one has to take my word for all of this. The experiments are very simple and conclusive, and unlike the cold cat synthesis, they are repeatable. Oh, and by the way, all of you unsuccessful former cat cooks should go to the store and buy a bottle of Almond Extract and take a whiff so that what I am saying really sinks in. Best regards, Pugsley. =============================================================================